Sarcasm in Japanese - Printable Version

Sarcasm in Japanese - Printable Version

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Sarcasm in Japanese - Marble101 - 2012-01-02

I have a friend that just moved to America from China. He speaks english, but whenever I use sarcasm, he doesn't understand it.
Example:
(It is raining)
Me: "I love today's weather. It is just wonderful"
Him: "But it's raining"
Me: "It's just so beautiful today"
Him: "But, it's raining"
Me: "No, you don't understand I was joking"
Him: "What?"

I have repeatedly had conversations with speakers of other languages that go something like that.
So my question is, does Sarcasm exist only in English, and if it exists in Japanese, is it considered funny like in English?

Sarcasm in Japanese - Betelgeuzah - 2012-01-02

I can safely say that sarcasm exists in more languages than English.

However, I can also say with certainty that to detect sarcasm in a language other than your own is not as simple as it might seem.

Sarcasm in Japanese - fakewookie - 2012-01-02

I think that it depends on how obvious it is. I wasn't there to hear you say it, but from the text alone it's not entirely implausible that you really were saying that you liked that day's weather.

My own experiences in Japan have told me that it has to be really obvious that you're joking in order for that kind of joke to work.

Sarcasm in Japanese - daaan - 2012-01-02

This thing certainly varies across cultures. For example, in the Netherlands this kind of sarcasm would generally be understood and considered funny, but in Germany the same would happen as in the example above.

I don't know about Japan or China, however.

Sarcasm in Japanese - JimmySeal - 2012-01-02

Marble101 Wrote:So my question is, does Sarcasm exist only in English,

Ha.

I think a lot of inter-language sarcasm falls flat because:
a. The non-native listener hearing it is having a hard enough time comprehending what's being said or can't recognize a sarcastic tone in L2, and takes it at face value.
or
b. The native speaker hearing it assumes the non-native speaker made a mistake.
or
c. The non-native speaker doesn't know how to produce a sarcastic tone or phrase their message sarcastically in L2.

Sarcasm in Japanese - chamcham - 2012-01-02

Just add a "dakara" before saying something sarcastic. It will make it more obvious.

Sarcasm in Japanese - zigmonty - 2012-01-02

Japanese people understand the concept of sarcasm. They don't, however, always get sarcasm in english because the clues are different and they may have listening comprehension problems. They may not get sarcasm in japanese told by a non-native because said non-native is stuffing up the clues they're supposed to be attaching to it. And they're so used to pathetic japanese from gaijin that they just assume you're trying to be serious and said something wrong.

Many americans totally fail to understand australian sarcasm because we say it far more straight-faced than americans do: we don't give them the clues they're expecting.

Sarcasm in Japanese - haplology - 2012-01-02

I think it's probably linguistic and cultural. My experience is that the Japanese are much less sarcastic than Americans (and Brits are way more sarcastic than Americans). What would be considered "sarcasm" in Japanese is also often different. Brits do a very deadpan, droll humour - where Japanese humor often tends to be a bit goofy.

Brits (and maybe Aussies) often are surprised at American sarcasm. To them, it might not qualify as "sarcastic" because a lot of Americans will laugh at their own sarcastic comments.

That said, if Japanese "do" get the sarcasm, they often think it's funnier than a Westerner would - maybe because it's more unusual.

Sarcasm in Japanese - captal - 2012-01-02

zigmonty Wrote:Many americans totally fail to understand australian sarcasm because we say it far more straight-faced than americans do: we don't give them the clues they're expecting.

Which is totally screwing up my friends and family after I spent 2.5 years in Australia. No one gets when I'm being sarcastic anymore...

Sarcasm in Japanese - merlin.codex - 2012-01-02

.

Sarcasm in Japanese - Inny Jan - 2012-01-03

Marble101 Wrote:So my question is, does Sarcasm exist only in English, and if it exists in Japanese, is it considered funny like in English?

But of course sarcasm is a phenomenon that exists exclusively in English.
Mais bien sûr, le sarcasme est un phénomène qui existe exclusivement en français.
Aber natürlich Sarkasmus ist ein Phänomen, besteht ausschließlich in deutscher Sprache.
Ale oczywiście sarkazm jest zjawiskiem, które występuje wyłącznie w języku polskim.

Sarcasm in Japanese - astendra - 2012-01-03

Well played.

Sarcasm in Japanese - zigmonty - 2012-01-03

勿論、皮肉は日本語だけに存在する現象ですよ。

Sarcasm in Japanese - Hinode - 2012-01-03

daaan Wrote:This thing certainly varies across cultures. For example, in the Netherlands this kind of sarcasm would generally be understood and considered funny, but in Germany the same would happen as in the example above.

It wouldn't. ._.
Sarcasm is very common in the German language. Though, of course, if you say it in a deadly serious tone of course there is the chance that you will be misunderstood (quite like Poe's Law), especially when you talk to strangers who don't know about your background.

But anyway, this topic really is timely. I just wrote a short essay on lang-8 which was NOT MEANT to be serious at all. Something about how I've heard, that all Japanese from a young age posses the special skill （特別な技） called "Air Reading" and asking how someone like me could learn to "Read the Air" as well.

I probably haven't figured out how to use sarcasm in Japanese properly (OR I should have added a lot of smilies) because the responses I got where straight-faced explanations of what "空気を読む" really means. マジレスかよ・・・おい・・

(But then, the premise of lang-8 is that the people who write there don't know enough Japanese... I still thought it was dead obvious)

I'd appreciate some hints on Japanese sarcasm, what do I have to do to get through?

Sarcasm in Japanese - alizarine - 2012-01-03

Hinode Wrote:
daaan Wrote:This thing certainly varies across cultures. For example, in the Netherlands this kind of sarcasm would generally be understood and considered funny, but in Germany the same would happen as in the example above.
It wouldn't. ._.
Sarcasm is very common in the German language. Though, of course, if you say it in a deadly serious tone of course there is the chance that you will be misunderstood (quite like Poe's Law), especially when you talk to strangers who don't know about your background.

This.

As someone who's been to Germany and knows quite a few Germans, I can safely say they do get (and use) sarcasm. It's just that German sarcasm is usually far more "obvious" than the British sort (and perhaps that of the Netherlands - I don't know about that Wink

). In Germany, sarcastic remarks are often delivered in a tone of voice that distinguishes it from non-sarcastic ones, not in the dry or deadpan manner the Brits like to do it.

Sarcasm in Japanese - astendra - 2012-01-03

http://ansaikuropedia.org/wiki/皮肉 <.<

Sarcasm in Japanese - Shakunatz - 2012-01-04

The 「今日はいい天気ですねー」 works well for me. Recently I tried various time the 「今日は暑いね～」 but it never worked (December, 6.40 a.m. waiting for the バイト先 to open, so it was very obvious).
Sometimes

Quote:b. The native speaker hearing it assumes the non-native speaker made a mistake.

and correct me. Only when I`ve explained I meant it as a joke they would start laughing. I guess my Japanese is still not good enough for this kind of jokes...As when I watch tv my friends/gf and they hear that kind of jokes, they laugh immediately.

Sarcasm in Japanese - DevvaR - 2012-01-04

zigmonty Wrote:勿論、皮肉は日本語だけに存在する現象ですよ。

I see what you did there. Wink

Sarcasm in Japanese - daaan - 2012-01-04

alizarine Wrote:
Hinode Wrote:It wouldn't. ._.
Sarcasm is very common in the German language. Though, of course, if you say it in a deadly serious tone of course there is the chance that you will be misunderstood (quite like Poe's Law), especially when you talk to strangers who don't know about your background.
This.

As someone who's been to Germany and knows quite a few Germans, I can safely say they do get (and use) sarcasm. It's just that German sarcasm is usually far more "obvious" than the British sort (and perhaps that of the Netherlands - I don't know about that ). In Germany, sarcastic remarks are often delivered in a tone of voice that distinguishes it from non-sarcastic ones, not in the dry or deadpan manner the Brits like to do it.

Ah ok. I've lived in Germany for a few years, and if you put it that way, I agree. You can see this very clearly during the carnival shows:

Comedian: Sorry I'm late, but I had to come by train...
Spectators: <silent>
Band: Pa-paa pa-paa (tune indicating a joke)
Spectators: <laughing>

The Dutch are more like the British, and from that background we just consider the Germans to be the most unfunny people in the world, because they need those clues.

Btw. Would there be nations where sarcasm isn't understood at all, even when it is made obvious?

Sarcasm in Japanese - nadiatims - 2012-01-04

I frequently find people are completely unable to tell if I'm being sarcastic or not even in english. For Australians it's completely normal to be sarcastic without altering your tone of voice at all.

Sarcasm in Japanese - Thora - 2012-01-04

Aha! I had some communication glitches with a former boyfriend from Australia. I'd typically assume he was being sarcastic when he was actually being serious. Wrote it off as a personality thing at the time. Hadn't occurred to me that it could be an Aussie thing. haha

Actual situation: The DVD players isn't working and I'm trying to reconnect the various cables between all the components and speakers. Boyfriend, lying on the couch the whole time, says "Aren't you finished yet? I'll be asleep before we watch this thing. If I'm not asleep, can you bring me a beer?"

My interpretation: It's a kind of self-deprecating sarcasm to acknowledge he's being lazy and selfish. (ie decent guy)

Nope. He's serious. (hmm... at least he's gorgeous...)

The beer thing might be typical Aussie man behaviour, but what self-respecting Aussie guy would let a girl be in charge of the stereo system? ;p

Sarcasm in Japanese - zigmonty - 2012-01-04

Thora Wrote:Aha! I had some communication glitches with a former boyfriend from Australia.

I don't know... he might have just been a dickhead. Tongue

Lots of people pretend they're being sarcastic and rely on you assuming they are. But really they're just being a dick. Everything before the asking for a beer is pretty normal though.

Sarcasm in Japanese - Jarvik7 - 2012-01-04

A real Aussie would be outside having a BBQ or wrestling crocs, not watching DVDs...

re: fetch me a beer..
That sounds exactly like something my (female) Aussie coworker would say.

Sarcasm in Japanese - Thora - 2012-01-04

If by normal you mean as a twisted way of showing appreciation, then, yeah, that's seems pretty normal to me, too. But it does seem dickheadish if you actually mean it.

I think the beer request was meant to be funny, but he did actually want me to get him a beer. (?) I suppose I didn't really get his humour. He claimed Canadian girls are too sensitive. So I was hoping to blame it on some unique Australian brand of sarcasm instead. ;p

I see what you mean about fake sarcasm. (a double negative?) A version of biting humour. I wonder if I'd catch fake sarcasm in Japanese. And with that....we're back on topic! :-)

* * *

I don't know if it was mentioned, but one form of sarcasm in Japanese is to use keigo when it's not really needed (or to otherwise speak too formally). We do the same thing English, but somehow it seems more formalized in Japanese. Maybe bc it can be done with language form alone without the exaggerated intonation we tend to use in English. [or maybe only north american english?]

Sarcasm in Japanese - Inny Jan - 2012-01-04

Thora Wrote:I don't know if it was mentioned, but one form of sarcasm in Japanese is to use keigo when it's not really needed

That seems to be in an agreement with what one of my Japanese teachers once said. Half jokingly, half seriously she said that when Japanese couples have an argument they tend to be extremely polite one to each other. I don't think that's a particularly bad idea for a marital argument Smile