+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Learning resources (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: The problem with iKnow: no refunds (/thread-8806.html)
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Cyborg Ninja - 2011-12-19
If you look at the payment information page on iKnow.jp , you can see the program has different payment types. One is a fixed payment type, and the other rolling. While the rolling monthly payment type seems a fine model to me, the fixed type could be a problem. The site states, "Refunds will not be made under any circumstance after a plan has been paid for." This means you can pay a year's worth of access for US$80 all at once, but if the site goes under and the company bankrupt, you won't receive a refund for the months that you did not have access to. Frankly, it's a possibility that iKnow will eventually fold.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - zigmonty - 2011-12-20
Err... if a company goes bankrupt, it doesn't matter if they *do* normally have a policy of refunds, you probably ain't getting one. That's kinda the point of bankruptcy.
If you don't believe in the company's future prospects, then paying for a service a year in advance is kinda silly, but that has nothing to do with their refund policy.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Splatted - 2011-12-20
That does sound dodgy though. If you pay for a year you should not be denied a refund after a day.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - zigmonty - 2011-12-20
Splatted Wrote:That does sound dodgy though. If you pay for a year you should not be denied a refund after a day.... Why? If i buy a car, can i take it back and demand a refund? Even if there's nothing wrong with it? Yes, for some big purchases there are cooling off periods, but you never have the right to an arbitrary return unless the store is being extremely nice to you and going far above the legal requirement (obviously varies by country though).
The whole point of paying for stuff further in advance is that the certainty of income means they can offer you a lower price. If you can demand a refund at any time, how is it any different from paying month by month? That's like buying something in bulk to get a discount, then deciding you don't need half of it and trying to return it. That's just not how it works.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - chamcham - 2011-12-20
Cyborg Ninja Wrote:If you look at the payment information page on iKnow.jp , you can see the program has different payment types. One is a fixed payment type, and the other rolling. While the rolling monthly payment type seems a fine model to me, the fixed type could be a problem. The site states, "Refunds will not be made under any circumstance after a plan has been paid for." This means you can pay a year's worth of access for US$80 all at once, but if the site goes under and the company bankrupt, you won't receive a refund for the months that you did not have access to. Frankly, it's a possibility that iKnow will eventually fold.Angry Customer: No refunds! WTF?!
Customer Representative: iKnow.....
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - astendra - 2011-12-20
zigmonty Wrote:... Why? If i buy a car, can i take it back and demand a refund? Even if there's nothing wrong with it? Yes, for some big purchases there are cooling off periods, but you never have the right to an arbitrary return unless the store is being extremely nice to you and going far above the legal requirement (obviously varies by country though).Well, it's not the same thing, but in the EU, you can return or cancel pretty much anything bought through the internet, mail order, etc. within a certain number of days, without stating any reasons, as long as it's in essentially the same condition. Same thing if a salesman calls you and gets you to buy something. There are some obvious exceptions though, and I doubt you can actually invoke it for an online software subscription.
chamcham Wrote:Angry Customer: No refunds! WTF?!Ba-dum-tssh!
Customer Representative: iKnow.....
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Splatted - 2011-12-20
zigmonty Wrote:Who said there was nothing wrong with it? The OP's quote said "no refunds under any cirumstances". Also, I was under the impression that the cooling off period applied to all purchases.Splatted Wrote:That does sound dodgy though. If you pay for a year you should not be denied a refund after a day.... Why? If i buy a car, can i take it back and demand a refund? Even if there's nothing wrong with it? Yes, for some big purchases there are cooling off periods, but you never have the right to an arbitrary return unless the store is being extremely nice to you and going far above the legal requirement (obviously varies by country though).
The whole point of paying for stuff further in advance is that the certainty of income means they can offer you a lower price. If you can demand a refund at any time, how is it any different from paying month by month? That's like buying something in bulk to get a discount, then deciding you don't need half of it and trying to return it. That's just not how it works.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - astendra - 2011-12-20
It doesn't apply for unsealed media or software though, does it? As for whether a digital subscription service can be considered unsealed or not, I guess it's a matter of semantics.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - zigmonty - 2011-12-20
Splatted Wrote:Who said there was nothing wrong with it? The OP's quote said "no refunds under any cirumstances". Also, I was under the impression that the cooling off period applied to all purchases.Cooling off periods only apply to certain products/services in certain countries. The internet is a grey area, as it's pretty hard to enforce local laws on foreign companies. If such a law exists in your country, and it's enforceable against the company in question, then that overrides their "no returns" policy. I don't think it's actually illegal for them to not inform you of that, as it would be ridiculous for them to be responsible for informing their customers of the law in every country they sell to. But there is still a difference between cooling off periods and "you can return anything you want at any time". And all bets are off if the company is bankrupt.
The original poster was complaining that paying for something in advance involves risk and you can't always guarantee you'll get what you paid for. That's life. Bankruptcy means some of the company's creditors won't get paid. If $80 is a sum of money you can't afford to lose, then pay at a more regular interval. Please don't ruin it for people willing to take the risk for a discount.
As an aside, frankly, i think consumer law in many countries has swung too far the other way. There is no reason you should have a right to return something that isn't defective and performs as advertised. It just creates uncertainty for businesses.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Elenkis - 2011-12-20
You get a free trial before paying any money. If you then decide to subscribe, you have the choice of paying up for a whole year at a discounted rate. Weigh up the risks. If paying for a year is too much of a risk for you, then you can either pay monthly or just opt to not use the service.
I don't particularly see this as a problem myself.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Splatted - 2011-12-20
Fair enough on the cooling off period, but:
zigmonty Wrote:The original poster was complaining about that, but I wasn't.Splatted Wrote:Who said there was nothing wrong with it? The OP's quote said "no refunds under any cirumstances". Also, I was under the impression that the cooling off period applied to all purchases.The original poster was complaining that paying for something in advance involves risk and you can't always guarantee you'll get what you paid for. That's life. Bankruptcy means some of the company's creditors won't get paid. If $80 is a sum of money you can't afford to lose, then pay at a more regular interval. Please don't ruin it for people willing to take the risk for a discount.
zigmonty Wrote:As an aside, frankly, i think consumer law in many countries has swung too far the other way. There is no reason you should have a right to return something that isn't defective and performs as advertised. It just creates uncertainty for businesses.But what the OP quoted seems to suggest that you won't get a refund even if it is defective in some way.
Elenkis Wrote:You get a free trial before paying any money. If you then decide to subscribe, you have the choice of paying up for a whole year at a discounted rate.That sounds pretty reasonable, but if someone has a reasonable complaint then a refund may still be appropriate.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Zgarbas - 2011-12-21
There's a 6 months option too...Still at discount and I doubt the company is going bankrupt that soon. After all, nearly everyone made their yearly subscriptions around April-May last year, so even if no one decides to renew and they close down you'll still get 5 months.
But man, I miss smart.fm =(. I wish Iknow would go back to that quality of service.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - harusame - 2011-12-21
chamcham Wrote:Angry Customer: No refunds! WTF?!Tee hee.
Customer Representative: iKnow.....
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Cyborg Ninja - 2011-12-21
You can't really compare this to purchasing a car, because the worth of the product diminishes rapidly once it's off the lot. This goes for new product sold in retail stores. I also don't believe a new product should allowed to be returned if it were not detective and worked as advertised. Sadly, "the customer is always right" in those cases. I've had customers do that all the time because they stupidly didn't pay attention to what they were buying, said it was defective even though it wasn't.
I am bothered more at the risk of a year-long membership. It should be similar to a contract where the user will be charged an amount to cancel the membership, equal to or more than what they would have normally paid without a time-based discount. Like some people know here, iknow/smart.fm's quality changes frequently.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - zigmonty - 2011-12-21
Yeah... i should point out that i don't use their service at all and my rants above should not be construed as a recommendation.
The problem with iKnow: no refunds - Omoishinji - 2011-12-22
The odds of getting a refund if the company goes bankrupt is zero. It just doesn't happen. Try the service for a few months to see if you like it, then switch to the yearly member. You will be spending 3 or more years learning another language.