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The Special Things Going On In Japan - nadiatims - 2011-12-12
I wouldn't really call them any more of a cancer than any other pop music from pretty much anywhere.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Jarvik7 - 2011-12-12
apirx Wrote:I don't judge anyone who likes them, but I personally can't stand idol groups with far too many members that dance around and have tv shows but can't actually sing, write lyrics (or have decent lyrics written for them) or play instruments.Jarvik7 Wrote:Hate AKB for what they are, a cancer in the music scene.I thought they were cool before everyone told me they're not. : O
I don't think any AKB members are even particularly attractive. There are more attractive girls on the train every day, underage or over (this is one reason why I don't think the appeal is mostly sexual). It's largely younger sister/daughter appeal imo.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Tzadeck - 2011-12-12
I'd say it's fairly sexual:
(This video is popular with
Male age 35-44
Male age 45-54
Male age 25-34)
I mean... the girl at about 2:40 with the wet stuff all over her face?
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Jarvik7 - 2011-12-12
Can't watch the vid at work, but I'd say that stats are pretty skewed by the fact that most Japanese users of youtube (especially those who use it enough to have filled in their profiles) will be males of those age groups.
In other words, that youtube video is popular with youtube viewers.
When I taught middle school, everyone liked AKB regardless of gender.
They are much more popular with minors than they are with adults, so they should show up in those stats if they were accurate.
There is of course some sexual attraction (a former member became a porn star after all), but it isn't the main reason for the popularity.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Zgarbas - 2011-12-12
Jarvik7 and Tzadeck, I don't think you understand what feminism is about. I'll try to explain it. And yes, I meant it as sexist towards men and I think it's sad that despite the fact that I explained that twice you still needed an extra explanation to realize it.
First of all, feminism isn't and never was just about women. Sure, the name might imply it(and now that it's come this far the name is actually a problem since it leads to misunderstandings), but that's because when it started it WAS all about the women. I mean let's face it, up to 50 years ago women really were not more than tools that you kept at home to raise your kids. Kidnapped women would be left unreported because it was assumed that they were whores. Rape was treated as if it wouldn't exist. Women were basically sub-human. So that's why it got called FEMinism, because at the time men had everything whilst women were just high-maintenance pets. But feminism is about equality.
Now, we've come a long way, and there seems to be a common misunderstanding, which in my opinion has stagnated gender growth. A few misunderstandings, actually.
1) feminism is not just about the women. The bra-burning man-haters are not feminists. The term for them is misandry(it's like misogyny, but women against men). The ones who hide their misandry behind the feminism cloak are called feminazis. I think these feminazis are the worst thing that can happen to feminism, since people stop wanting to be feminists for fear of association with them. Why the confusion?
Well it's simple really. 50 years ago women HAD to be strong about their emancipation, and it is easy to go overboard no matter what you do. These days it's more of a misunderstanding, given the name of the current. One more thing that contributes is the fear of equality. Whenever a minority steps forward the fear of acception makes the negative traits stand out. It's why the Bible has been used against pretty much all minorities ever, despite it never being straight-forward about it. It's why the normal feminsits never make the news. FFS, the bra-burnings never even happened on a large level, but everyone assumes that they did because it sounds like an extremist thing that would make people hate feminism. It's why anti-feminist jokes exist. It's because people never liked change. So the 99% of the feminists which are lead by common sense are left to explain themselves to people, whilst the 1% stand out and define the norm. It's shitty.
2) sexism is about the men as well. Feminism is about equality, and equality can only be obtained if both genders are treated equally. So if a man is denied a position in a company or if it is a social stigma for a man to be a househusband, then that is still a feminist issue.
3) there are more types of equality, and there are various levels of unequal treatment. I'm not going to go over each one in particular, but for a major part let's focus on equality of opportunity, social equality and the bureocratic side.
equality of opportunity: both genders are given equal chances of succeeding. So, for a simple example, a person is allowed to interview for a job regardless of his/her gender and they are treated as an individual rather than a member of a certain gender.
the bureocratic side: the system allows for that person to get the job. Now, for the most part the bureocratic side has been dealt with, but it can still be an issue. For a simple example, a woman in the US would have much difficulty in maintaining a job and having children. Since the daycare system is very expensive there, it is nigh impossible for a couple to both work whilst raising a child, and one of them has to stay home. Due to the social stigma on men being househusbands, it is usually the woman. Don't get me wrong, if a woman WANTS to be a housewife then she should, but the system should allow a choice.
And the social stigma on men as househusbands is mostly there because it's a woman's job. Gender roles and stuff, ya know?
Now the social aspect is pretty much what needs the most work in most societies. Sure, the system allows househusbands, but social stigmas on gender roles make the situation not much of a choice. Having pre-made ideas such as "men should do this and women should do that", regardless of what this and that refer to, is enforcement of gender roles. Because the children are raised with those ideas in mind and inability to keep with them leads to bullying or exclusion.
BTW, regarding the sex thing. Keeping stereotypes such as "men should only be looking for the looks" is what helps that thing happen. We're being raised with that in mind, that men want looks and women want money or god knows what, so the concept that sex is something for men is also pushed. More and more women are coming out about their sexuality(and still labeled as whores, because only men want sex obviously), but how many men are coming out about their lack of it? A woman with a high sex drive can brag about it. A man with a low sex drive is shunned. Despite the fact that both should be equally normal.
And yes, stereotypes and generalizations are what help these things continue. Masses are extremely easy to manipulate, and once an idea is turned into a stereotype then the masses will accept it as truth. It's how shit works.
4) nature versus nurture.
There are obvious biological difference between men and women, but social-wise it's all nurture. Sure, men might be attracted to women with wider hips whilst women will go for someone with wider shoulders, but if you take one look at the tv you'll notice that the women men are fapping to are pretty much screwed if they get pregnant. It is fashionable to be thin, and more and more women can't give birth naturally because, well, they're too thin to. It's why cesarian births have become so common. So it's not "natural" to be attracted to young thing girls, quite the opposite. It's a nurture thing, because that's what we are raised with and that's what the TV says we should like.
Same goes for work. I absolutely loathe it when girls are my boyfriend's workplace, despite having the same job on paper, leave him to do all the manual labor. Because they expect to be given a job without fulfilling it because it's not a womanly thing. That's plain old shitty entitlement and has nothing to do with feminism, but with being an entitled bitch. The only reason women aren't as strong(physically) as men is because they are raised to not be so.
5) "it's always been like this"
Well, yeah. But I like to think that the past few centuries of technological and social development might have actually lead to something, you know? I don't blame the 15th century books for being sexist because that was the norm. Once you change the norm you change individual views as well. So the only way to enact change is to, you know, change. A few hundred years ago people were living surrounded by garbage and poo, didn't wash their hands and ate rats. Does that mean that we should do so as well?
Addendum: Gender roles are whatever places someone of a certain gender into any particular role, regardless of the disadvantage or advantage that it grants. It can be of any level.
Addendum2: The thing that men should be succesful, smart, good-looking, money-making and all is from way before feminism. Stand up for yourselves, men!
Addendum3: Recently rape was finally recognized from a legal PoV in the US. I saw many women complain that woman-on-man rape is still not recognized, but whenever that comes up I've never heard a man support it. "Hey, if I have an erection it means I like it". So yeah, men are enforcing their own negative stereotypes, which is sad.
So yeah. That's today's lesson on feminism for today, kids
.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - nadiatims - 2011-12-12
Jarvik Wrote:I don't think any AKB members are even particularly attractive. There are more attractive girls on the train every day, underage or over (this is one reason why I don't think the appeal is mostly sexual). It's largely younger sister/daughter appeal imo.i recall someone telling me they were specifically chosen to represent the fifth hottest girl in the class (ie cute but not super hot).
The Special Things Going On In Japan - vix86 - 2011-12-12
nadiatims Wrote:This could be true depending on you class, but I'd say 95% of the members in AKB still meet one criteria I always look for when I see a celebrity on TV.Jarvik Wrote:I don't think any AKB members are even particularly attractive. There are more attractive girls on the train every day, underage or over (this is one reason why I don't think the appeal is mostly sexual). It's largely younger sister/daughter appeal imo.i recall someone telling me they were specifically chosen to represent the fifth hottest girl in the class (ie cute but not super hot).
Nose Bridges. Just check them out
Most Japanese have SOME of a nose bridge and many have flat faces, but a lot of TV stars, movie stars, and artists have pretty well defined ones. Japanese think its more western/foreign looking so therefore its good. Just an interesting observation.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - kainzero - 2011-12-12
Tzadeck Wrote:I'd say it's fairly sexual:I think I already proved that most music videos register with those ages... unless you're telling me there's a large older homosexual population that likes EXILE.
(This video is popular with
Male age 35-44
Male age 45-54
Male age 25-34)
I mean... the girl at about 2:40 with the wet stuff all over her face?
The real point I want to drive home is that middle age people liking idol groups is not looked upon favorably even in Japan and should not be used as evidence that Japan has institutionalized pedophilia.
Without wanting to drive off-topic too far, if anyone has any questions about the group please ask, since I'm a somewhat moderate fan and there's a lot of misinformation that seems to spread.
Speaking of which, one of the things that kinda scared me is ヲタ芸、scripted dances/chants to these idol performances...
I think the closest thing to this in the US is Rocky Horror Picture Show...
It still makes me facepalm.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - dizmox - 2011-12-12
There was a guy doing ヲタ芸 at this maid/cosplay cafe I went to, he was cool
The Special Things Going On In Japan - aphasiac - 2011-12-12
Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't think any AKB members are even particularly attractive. There are more attractive girls on the train every day, underage or over (this is one reason why I don't think the appeal is mostly sexual). It's largely younger sister/daughter appeal imo.I already touched on this but - if it's really non-sexual and the older fans see them as "daughter substitutes", then there should be an similar number of obsessive middle aged female fans.
Also Japanese boy bands should have an equivalent middle-aged male (and again female) following of people who see them as "son substitutes"/younger brothers.
Do these fans exist? Genuine question..
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Tzadeck - 2011-12-12
kainzero Wrote:Looks like I've confused people a bit--my bad. I was just joking a bit with the ages.Tzadeck Wrote:I'd say it's fairly sexual:I think I already proved that most music videos register with those ages.
(This video is popular with
Male age 35-44
Male age 45-54
Male age 25-34)
I mean... the girl at about 2:40 with the wet stuff all over her face?
I meant the video to be telling, not the ages. I can't speak for others, but I see this video as pretty sexual, haha.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Tzadeck - 2011-12-12
Zgarbas--thanks for the long post, but I actually do know a lot about the feminist movement. I took plenty of classes on it in college. Actually, my major was philosophy, but in my college feminism was kind of linked with philosophy. So I took lots of classes that covered gender topics. Even when I was considering being a music minor, I took a class called "Class and Gender Through the Lens of Mozart's Da Ponte Operas."
Also, my college was choosing a new professor to be in the feminism department, and they asked me and two other students to help choose (I was chosen because I was a senior philosophy major well-known by the department, and because I had taken classes about feminism). There were six candidates and the three of us did a lunch/coffee dates with each of the candidates and discussed various things. The candidates also had to present their research to the other professors in the department, and we also attended these. We discussed our opinions on each candidate with the department before the new professor was chosen.
But, back on topic...
I think what's going on here is that I'm more critical of the modern version of the feminist movement than you, so we have difference opinions about it. It's not that I don't get what feminism is supposed to be. I'm critical of the feminist movement for a lot of reasons. One is that I think it is too humanist in a bad way--that is, it's one of the academic disciplines that still considers humans as 'special' compared with their fellow animal. Feminism has a tendency to ignore empirical knowledge that places us closer to the other animals than we would like to be.
I disagree with qwertyytrewq's point, but only because I think it's sort of expressing the wrong thing. I think what's really going on here is that men have a tendency to want to mate with more women with less commitment. That is, because men don't devote so many resources to childbirth, if a man can get away with sleeping with a girl without having to raise the child themselves, they will sometimes take that opportunity. It doesn't cost them many resources, but it does raise the chance that their genes will be passed on.
However, because women devote more resources to childbirth, it is in their best interest to find men that are committed to them and will help raise their child. So when choosing a mate they will usually try to find one who is committed to them and has the resources and health to help raise the child. If they can find a man like that then it will highly raise the chances their their children will reach reproductive age.
(Because of this, it ends up looking like looks are very important to a man. Actually, what's going on is that other factors are less important than they are for women. So it ends up seeming like looks are more important to men. In reality, what it is is that commitment is less important for men and it creates the illusion of looks being very important.)
Of course, it's not quite so simple. For example, children take lots of resources to raise, it takes resources for a man to court a woman, and a woman will often break ties with a man if she finds he is sleeping with someone else. So actually, it is often in the best interest of a man (in terms of passing on his genes) to be committed to one woman because overall his chance of having a child that lives to reproductive age will be higher.
Basically, animals that have the same reproductive situation as humans all work pretty much the same way. By reproductive situation I mean that humans have a long pregnancy, their children take enough resources to raise that it is difficult to do with just one parent, women don't advertise when they're ovulating, sex is done primarily in private, etc. So when we see similarities between those animals (there actually aren't that many that are that similar to us) and us, we should take note that although culture and ideas can have a big influence in our actions, we have certain biological tendencies.
I think that's what's going on. And I think it's the type of thing that would be ignored by academic feminism in favor of humanism. I think that feminism needs a better balance between empirical knowledge and humanism, so I find disagreement with feminists sometimes.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - IceCream - 2011-12-12
I don't see how wanting to sleep with more women without committing to them has anything to do with looks though. Good looks don't equate to good parenting. In that case, an average looking woman who seems like she'd make a good parent, is mentally strong, etc, would make a better choice than an awesome looking woman. (Any sociologist / psychologist will tell you how important a solid upbringing is for a kid to improve their chances in the future)
Of course, looks are important to people, and i don't think that's restricted to men, at all. I just think that from an evolutionary perspective, it's probably a lot more balanced than that with other characteristics.
btw, it seems like the argument that women are interested in only sleeping with committed guys is a bit of a red herring. In primates, the size of the testicles is strongly correlated with degree of monogamy (you need bigger testicles if there's lots of sperm competition). Human men have larger testicles than gorillas (though smaller than chimpanzees), which leads to the conclusion that when our species developed, women weren't particularly monogamous.
That's a more convincing argument for women being interested in men's looks than any for men only being interested in women's looks.
... except, there ARE a lot of women who go for money and status... which just goes to show that culture wins this argument.
It's also worth considering, in social species like ours, how standing in a group might affect mate choices (like i said earlier, they are not as simple as "males do this"), "females do this". For example, if you're a good looking man / woman, you might not place as much importance on looks, since your children are already likely to be fairly good looking... and so you choose based on other reasons, and so on.
And like pm215 said earlier, it doesn't really matter... part of civilisation is working out what traits our ancestors had that are actually a bit rubbish, and that we should avoid acting on.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - kitakitsune - 2011-12-12
I would totally bang all the AKB 48 girls.....
the ones over 18 that is
The Special Things Going On In Japan - nadiatims - 2011-12-12
I'm not totally sure I agree with Tzadeck's analysis of it but I do think evolution is pretty damn important in understanding human behavior. I also don't think ignoring biological tendencies makes for a particularly happy life.
I think it's important to consider that for most of human existence people probably lived together in smallish close knit tribes kind of like chimpanzees or baboons etc, formed natural hierarchies and generally every member was taken care of collectively, so females wouldn't necessarily require or expect any commitment from the males. They just want to get impregnated by the best or strongest because this will produce the strongest offspring. After that it doesn't particularly concern her if the male goes around impregnating other females because at any rate he's still part of the tribe and contributes to finding/collecting food and protecting the group (unless he wants to lose his alpha status). The male members compete for the status of alpha male, who gets his pick of the females and can lead the group (because he has demonstrated superior genes). Once the female is free to get pregnant again, she will give preferential mating privileges to whoever is alpha male (which may well have changed). Below the alpha male there is a hierarchy of lesser males who still get to mate and have less choice in the matter (supply/demand). Now the alpha male probably has to leave some females for the other males under him otherwise there would be too much strife in the group and constant leadership challenges. So the males would develop some standards too (hence selecting for beauty/sex-appeal), and subsequently a hierarchy would form among the females too.
Now in modern society where people live often disconnected lives even if they live in cities of millions of people, woman may require some kind of commitment from a man to protect and provide for them while they are pregnant and bringing up their children. I think this necessity likely developed with the advent of agriculture and larger communities and gave rise to the concepts of marriage and monogamy.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - IceCream - 2011-12-13
Right, that sounds logical enough (especially the community living part), but it's not how it seems to work in chimpanzee society, for example. Yes, you hear a lot about "alpha males" but there are also "alpha females", and the female dominance ranking is generally passed down to daughters. It's not anything to do with beauty, again, other characteristics are more important. It's also often females who have the deciding factor in who the dominant male is, because the dominant male needs the female's support.
You also see things like females scraping out sperm after mating with males they don't want to conceive with... this might happen when the female is in allegiance with another male for them to gain dominance for example (perhaps she doesn't like the alpha male's ruling style or whatever). It also happens for reasons that aren't clear to us... perhaps genetic diversity.
You also have to remember that these kinds of "biological tendencies" are far, far from proven. The first thing you have to remember is that genes generally don't state these kinds of things, and what tendency will result from ANY gene is HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON ENVIRONMENT.
Also, there are strategies that work, and strategies that don't work, but in any complex society there HAVE TO BE multiple strategies for finding mates, otherwise only a few will manage to spread their genes, and that isn't ideal for the rest.
So yeah, we have to be wary of declaring what biological tendencies we do or don't have, and which we should hold onto for reasons like "we won't live a happy life going against biological tendencies".
The Special Things Going On In Japan - kainzero - 2011-12-13
Tzadeck Wrote:I meant the video to be telling, not the ages. I can't speak for others, but I see this video as pretty sexual, haha.there's an interview in a magazine somewhere that i read...
basically, the director is a female and wanted to express high school feminity, since she said high school girls like to show each other their underwear and stuff. (questionable, i know.)
she also offered the idea to the girls and let them decide if they were uncomfortable with it, but they all bought in. they probably wouldn't have done it if it were a male director. (also questionable, since i doubt they really could've said no.)
to be honest i think it's a lot less sexual than some of their other videos, specifically ponytail to shushu and everyday kachuusha, simply because there's really no need for them to go prancing in bikinis whereas heavy rotation does actually have a theme going for it. heavy rotation to me is like playful fun.
aphasiac Wrote:I already touched on this but - if it's really non-sexual and the older fans see them as "daughter substitutes", then there should be an similar number of obsessive middle aged female fans.female wota also exist for idol groups.
Also Japanese boy bands should have an equivalent middle-aged male (and again female) following of people who see them as "son substitutes"/younger brothers.
Do these fans exist? Genuine question..
i think, though, that male idol groups tend to dominate daytime TV when the wife is supposed to be at home, and the female groups work more late night shows.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - nadiatims - 2011-12-13
@Icecream
Good points. I trust you know waay more about chimpanzees than I do.
My description may have sounded more patriarchal than I intended. Certainly it's the females that choose the alpha male, and I imagine visa-verse which makes for an interesting dynamic.
Add in competing strategies and different environments and everything gets a lot more flexible. However, and I have no way proving this, I still suspect that the changes and (the speed of those changes) that have occurred in human society since the agricultural revolution (20k years ago?) mean that our genes haven't anywhere near caught up with and optimized themselves for the way we now live and our societies work today, not even close. Especially we've unwittingly constructed all sorts of institutions (banking, schools, politics, marriage among other things) that we often have trouble making rational decisions about based on our instincts.
@kainzero
I don't think it really matters whether the director is female or male or what they say their intents are. AKB48 is a money making venture.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - Jarvik7 - 2011-12-13
aphasiac Wrote:The あこがれ in Japan focuses on older, not younger brothers. I know for a fact that many middle-aged women see groups like smap/exile/whatever and Korean drama actors as handsome, talented son surrogates. Get a group of such old women together and they sound exactly like they are bragging about their son. This phenomenon is also FAR more common than middle-aged men being AKB fans.Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't think any AKB members are even particularly attractive. There are more attractive girls on the train every day, underage or over (this is one reason why I don't think the appeal is mostly sexual). It's largely younger sister/daughter appeal imo.I already touched on this but - if it's really non-sexual and the older fans see them as "daughter substitutes", then there should be an similar number of obsessive middle aged female fans.
Also Japanese boy bands should have an equivalent middle-aged male (and again female) following of people who see them as "son substitutes"/younger brothers.
Do these fans exist? Genuine question..
Men on the other hand see them as role models of coolness (except for the effeminate Korean actors I guess).
The lack of women having exactly the same fascination as the male fans proves nothing. Gender affects how they relate to the group in question, but that still doesn't make it sexual.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - kainzero - 2011-12-13
nadiatims Wrote:@kainzeroit matters when you ask whether or not you feel the music video is sexualized.
I don't think it really matters whether the director is female or male or what they say their intents are. AKB48 is a money making venture.
i don't see what money making has to do with it.
do you think all music videos are made just for making money?
do you think every music video is filmed with the sake of extracting more money and that is what each staff member is trained to do?
why didn't they just hire a cheaper director who could place them in lingerie and film a cheap provocative PV instead of getting a well known photographers in Japan, who also believes in strong female characters?
why don't they just make all their videos of them nearly naked if it moves cds?
i don't think that's true of any organization, that everyone from the top down only cares about getting money in any way possible. and even if money is the driving operator, making themselves slut themselves out isn't a guaranteed way of making money, otherwise all their videos would've been like that.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - nadiatims - 2011-12-13
kainzero Wrote:Because the director is getting paid good money for it she will find a way to rationalize it to herself. I think sex is pretty blatantly intended to be part of the appeal of AKB48, why else would they be dancing around in underwear and bikinis? The concept is pretty brilliant really. It appeals to the teenage girl fantasy of being pretty/sexy and getting noticed, hence they deliberately choose the non threatening cute girl next door types. It also appeals to teenage boys because they resemble their schoolmates they're secretly crushing on. I don't really see any problem with it so long as they don't focus on the underage members too much.nadiatims Wrote:@kainzeroit matters when you ask whether or not you feel the music video is sexualized.
I don't think it really matters whether the director is female or male or what they say their intents are. AKB48 is a money making venture.
i don't see what money making has to do with it.
kainzero Wrote:do you think all music videos are made just for making money?Not all are, but for a product like AKB48 definitely yes. Do you have any idea how much pop music videos like this cost to produce? If they stop producing albums and PVs then the cash cow ends.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - zigmonty - 2011-12-13
Tzadeck Wrote:I'd say it's fairly sexual:Please, i'm sure it's also popular with males under the age of 25.
(This video is popular with
Male age 35-44
Male age 45-54
Male age 25-34)
I mean, the song's rubbish but...
Quote:I mean... the girl at about 2:40 with the wet stuff all over her face?Yeah no kidding... getting stuff past the censors FTW.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - zigmonty - 2011-12-13
In the interest of stamping out sexism:
Discuss.
The Special Things Going On In Japan - dizmox - 2011-12-13
Everyone's just jealous Asia gets all the sexy bands
The Special Things Going On In Japan - vix86 - 2011-12-13
zigmonty Wrote:In the interest of stamping out sexism:This is brilliant. To make it legit they need to get a Johnnys band to do it though. I then need lots of feedback from girls to see how it makes them feel. I feel like the whole point of the video is to point out how homosexual the original PV can be interpreted as (never occurred to me till seeing this one honestly).
Discuss.