+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: General discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: 外人 (/thread-863.html)
外人 - dingomick - 2007-10-12
Right on wrightak.
外人 - dilandau23 - 2007-10-12
wrightak Wrote:What makes this interesting is that there is an argument saying that the people being described might not be in the best position to judge, since it's not their language.Well said, this is exactly what I was thinking.
外人 - wrightak - 2007-10-12
yorkii Wrote:Maybe 6 months ago, the school at which I currently work had an inspection by the prefectures education department which concluded with a speech explaining which offensive and/or racist words should not be spoken in schools. among them was the word 外人. If the word is acceptable in your opinion, why would it be thought of as offensive and a word not to use around children by (at least Ibaraki's) the prefectures education department?I find this fascinating and it's the first time I've ever heard of something like this. I don't know the circumstances surrounding this event but I think that this might be an example of the extremely considerate nature of the Japanese people and the lengths that the Japanese will go to in order to keep the peace.
Someone or some people have obviously made it known to the prefectures education department that the term 外人 is more offensive than 外国人. These people could either be potentially described as a 外人 or they were Japanese people who were concerned about people's reactions to the word. In the first case, it seems that this policy on Japanese language usage has been instigated by a very small proportion of the population, whose Japanese language proficiency probably isn't that accomplished.
In the second case, the reaction of people that have been described as a 外人 have caused Japanese people to worry about offending them. Thus the Japanese have changed policy on the usage of their own language because of the reactions of people whose native tongue isn't theirs.
Of course, there is what I believe to be the separate issue of those who were born in Japan of non-Japanese parents or grandparents. In this case, the native tongue of these people would be Japanese. But in my experience, although these people are perhaps unfairly not described as 日本人, they are not described as 外国人 or 外人 either.
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-12
wrightak, you are basing all of your statements on a giant linguistic assumption you made in the previous page. Even if some Japanese people are unaware of it, 外人 does mean outsider, and very often is used as a derogatory word, and that has been the case for over a hundred years. It did not become that way after foreigners started taking offense at the word.
Quote:I think that this might be an example of the extremely considerate nature of the Japanese people and the lengths that the Japanese will go to in order to keep the peace.What? And I suppose restricting the N word in American schools would be a testament to the extremely considerate nature of the American people.
Quote:Someone or some people have obviously made it known to the prefectures education department that the term 外人 is more offensive than 外国人. These people could either be potentially described as a 外人 or they were Japanese people who were concerned about people's reactions to the word.Or, the people making the policies are educated enough to know that it is a derogatory term. Period.
Quote:In the second case, the reaction of people that have been described as a 外人 have caused Japanese people to worry about offending them.Merely your assumption, and in all likelihood, not much of a factor here.
Quote:Thus the Japanese have changed policy on the usage of their own language because of the reactions of people whose native tongue isn't theirs.A conclusion based on several huge assumptions on your part.
Quote:What makes this interesting is that there is an argument saying that the people being described might not be in the best position to judge, since it's not their language.It's certainly not our place to just decide out of the blue that it's offensive, but that's not what happened. Just look the word up in the dictionary (広辞苑):
1. 仲間以外の人。疎遠な人。
2. 敵視すべき人。
3. 外国人。異人。
None of these three definitions, other than the first half of number 3, is unoffensive. Are you going to argue that 広辞苑 has been tailored to reflect foreigners' interpretation of the word?!?
Here is a list of prohibited and restricted words in broadcasting, and yes, 外人 is on the list, with 外国人 offered as an alternative.
http://monoroch.net/gallery/kinshi/
Japan is slowly waking up to the concepts of discrimination and hate speech, and starting to view them as bad. I have little doubt that that is the motive for the new guidelines, and it has little to do with foreigners' reactions to the word.
外人 - alantin - 2007-10-12
Just my quick thoughts.. (I'm not attacking the dictionary!)
I don't think 外人 or 外国人 are offensive words either even thought they have the strongly excluding connotations. The way they are used makes the difference.
The word for foreigner in my own language actually directly translates to 外国人 (a person that comes from outside this country), but it's pretty much the only one we have so we have to use it when referring to foreigners in general or when talking about a third person whose nationality is uncertain. Thus I don't see why 外国人 or 外人 should be considered offending either. (although, Japanese seems to offer alternatives..)
Using it to say things like, "you foreigner! Come here!" is obviously rude whatever word you used!
アジア人 are just obviously アジア人 so why not call them Asian? but when you see a white guy walking down the street, you might not know if he's American or European.
アジアの以外人..?
I had some badly raised kids pointing at me yelling "外人、外人!" a couple of times and some old geezer pointed at my wife with his walking stick with "アメリカ人、アメリカ人!". These incidents.. grew tiresome quite quickly but that was due to the general stupidity exhibited rather than any words used..
I think I would get pissed at 外人さん thought! Just out of the blue I would put that in the same category with the w -word..
By the way. Has anyone been called 白人? I've only seen that word in news..
外人 - johnzep - 2007-10-12
wow that is a really great list of words
This entry made me chuckle:
犬殺し いぬごろし 野犬捕獲員 狂犬病予防技術員 職業名
calling someone a dog-killer is bad form, I suppose ^__^
外人 - johnzep - 2007-10-12
well I guess I won't ever complain about 白人...it is listed as a replacement for 毛唐
(o.o;)
外人 - dingomick - 2007-10-12
When children exclaim, "外人だ!" I love feigning fear and wonder and yelling, "日本人だ!" right back. Followed with a smile they'll usually laugh once they realize the absurdity of what they said. Who knows it affects their future behavior...
外人 - dingomick - 2007-10-12
Also, intent as opposed to definition is a weak argument. I would never imagine calling someone nigger/spick/wetback/Jap however innocent my view of that person. That said, has anyone yet given an alternative for 外人? We called "外人" in the US "foreigners" too, though one never assumes someone is not American because of race or accent...
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-12
The alternative is 外国人.
外人 - outside - person
外国人 - other - country - person
pretty significant difference.
外人 - dingomick - 2007-10-12
Haven't some people been arguing that they find that nearly as offensive...?
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-12
It doesn't appear that anyone has expressed a negative sentiment towards 外国人 besides dilandau23 in post #21:
Quote:For me [外人 is] shorter and faster and less pompous sounding than 外国人. I would even go so far as to say I have grown to dislike 外国人 more.I think 外国人 is a fine word for "foreigner" but its overuse can be troubling at times. Japanese can be quick to use 外国人 as an identifying characteristic of a person and seem to use the word more than people would use the corresponding word for "foreigner" in many other cultures.
But as a word in itself, I think most people would agree that 外国人 is ok.
外人 - wrightak - 2007-10-12
Your post comes across quite strongly Jimmy, I hope that I didn't offend with my views, be they incorrect or otherwise.
The views that I expressed were of course based on assumptions. I'm not stating that I'm definitely correct, it's just what appears to be the case to me.
JimmySeal Wrote:very often is used as a derogatory word, and that has been the case for over a hundred years. It did not become that way after foreigners started taking offense at the word.Are you basing this on anything other than your 広辞苑 lookup? I should have looked up the word before posting previously, I'm sorry I didn't. Did you find something about the history of the word that you didn't post? If so, please do. I can't find anything about the meanings being over a hundred years old.
Quote:Or, the people making the policies are educated enough to know that it is a derogatory term. Period.I'd like to think that there are no periods in the discussions we have on this forum.
Quote:It's certainly not our place to just decide out of the blue that it's offensive, but that's not what happened. Just look the word up in the dictionary (広辞苑):I must admit, I was very surprised to read definitions 1 and 2. I should have looked it up before I posted last time. I'm not the only one that is surprised. I know a few Japanese people in London and sent an email out asking whether they consider 外人 to be more derogatory than 外国人 and here's the first response I got:
1. 仲間以外の人。疎遠な人。
2. 敵視すべき人。
3. 外国人。異人。
None of these three definitions, other than the first half of number 3, is unoffensive. Are you going to argue that 広辞苑 has been tailored to reflect foreigners' interpretation of the word?!?
Quote:But I never heard any Japanese saying 外人to Japanese. so don't really know if anyone uses in the way of 1 and 2.Note that this person is completely separate from the person I referenced in my original post, who was a teacher. My view, like that of my friend's, is that it depends on how the word is used. Also, it appears that meanings 1 and 2 are rare. I understand that there is a case for saying that my friend is being ignorant of the derogatory nature of 外人 (or that they're not educated enough) and that their belief that the issue was started by foreigners is incorrect but your 広辞苑 definition is not enough to convince me of this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrightak さんは書きました:
When you look it up in the 広辞苑 you get:
1. 仲間以外の人。疎遠な人。
2. 敵視すべき人。
3. 外国人。異人。
1 and 2 seem to be quite derogatory. Do you not think so?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, actually Japanese really don't think about the difference when we use it. Only people care because foreginer seems to care more. And the argument about these words are started from foreginers and not Japanese so that people even don't know or think about the difference. Some old japanese would even say 「外人さん」as they think it is more polite. But because 外人 doesn't have 「国」in the word, some foreigner thinks it sounds like "outsider" rather than "people from different country" and don't like it. Personally, I think it is depends on person who uses it. If they say it in disguise, then that will be more derogatory in both words anyway.
But I guess you should use 外国人 in writing and things. Because 外人 is kind of short for 外国人.and That what people normally think when they use it.
I disagree with the differing dissections of "outside-person" and "other-country-person". I don't think that 外 loses the meaning of "outside", or that it changes to "other", or combines with 国 to mean "other country", when it appears in 外人. I think that in both words 外 means outside and carries the concept of "outside our group" implying that respect is needed.
外人 - resolve - 2007-10-12
A Japanese person I was talking to recently was saying 外人 was the original word, and that it didn't originally have a negative meaning. However, some people started to feel that it was not politically correct enough, and thus 外国人 started to be used as well.
I have certainly seen teachers at the elementary school I work at correct the children when they use 外人. And sometimes I see Japanese people consciously using 外人さん or 外国人 in preference if a foreigner is within earshot.
But at the same time, I think the vast majority of cases it is used, it is not intended to cause offense. That's worth considering before getting worked up when a Japanese person uses the word.
JimmySeal:
(Thanks for the link to page about politicially correct Japanese expressions, by the way. It's really interesting.)
The definition in koujien you posted demonstrates why I don't like that dictionary. Definitions are ordered from the oldest usages of the word, which may no longer even apply anymore. In contrast, daijirin numbers entries according to frequency of use. For 外人, they have:
がい-じん グワイ? [0] 【外人】
（１）外国人。「?選手」「?墓地」
（２）内輪でない人。他人。外部の人。「?もなき所に兵具をととのへ/平家 1」
So at least in the eyes of daijirin, the most common usage of 外人 is just to mean 外国人.
As an aside, self-referential use is still something that I ponder about. 外人さん is obviously honorific and would look silly used to refer to yourself. But to a certain extent, I feel like using 外国人 also carries some of that nuance, and thus 外人 feels more appropriate to refer to oneself in a humble way. To me it feels slightly similar to the self-referential usage of "nigger" in America.
And a bit of trivia, apparently 人外 was briefly in vogue to refer to a foreigner without them knowing you were talking about them. Can't say I've ever come across it in the wild, though.
外人 - resolve - 2007-10-12
Oh, and note that phrases like ヤバイ are in the list of expressions not suitable for broadcasting. The sentence in the explanation at the top is worth pointing out:
本来差別的な意味を持たないが時と場合によって使用をわきまえるべき言葉も掲載しています
Some of the words listed there are not fundamentally offensive, but can be used in offensive ways, and thus are best avoided on air. I would say 外人 fits into this category.
While I think it best that the media use 外国人, I don't think that list really proves that the term is fundamentally offensive. Do you get offended when people say ヤバイ on the street? :-)
外人 - alantin - 2007-10-12
外人さん being supposed to be honorific was a surprise thought when I think it again, thats what it obviously is! Also the foreigner's being of "another group" and thus requiring respect was a completely new way of looking at it!
Perhaps we are looking too much from our own standpoint and not understanding the Japanese point of view. Obviously they don't want to offend people when using the 外-word as opposed to any one who would use words like nigger, jap, etc. with clear understanding of what the word means.. I don't think 外国人 (or 外人) can in any way be included to this list of "hardcore insults"!
Ps. I don't know if it proves anything but does anyone know the movie (rush hour 1..?) in which Chacie Chan saw the black guy saying "what's up nigger" to his homies, and did the same. The homies didn't get his best intention and reacted quite enthusiasticly.. That was hilarious! Perhaps we could learn something from it..
Just using a "hardcore" example to illustrate..
外人 - vosmiura - 2007-10-12
I'll take 外人 in Japan over being called an alien in US.
外人 - alantin - 2007-10-12
Alien Registration always sounded interesting to me and I thought they must have just picked the first English word in the dictionary entry.
Until I found this on US immigration office web pages!
Quote:Inquiry About Status of I-551, Alien Registration Card
Purpose of Form :
This form is used to inquire as to the status of an I-551, Alien Registration Card, for an alien who has adjusted status.
...
外人 - dilandau23 - 2007-10-12
dingomick Wrote:When children exclaim, "外人だ!" I love feigning fear and wonder and yelling, "日本人だ!" right back. Followed with a smile they'll usually laugh once they realize the absurdity of what they said. Who knows it affects their future behavior...I do something similar, but usually shout "ないーじん" (内人) and point back. Which is either followed by an eruption of laughter or blank stares depending on how bright the kids/teachers are.
resolve Wrote:And a bit of trivia, apparently 人外 was briefly in vogue to refer to a foreigner without them knowing you were talking about them. Can't say I've ever come across it in the wild, though.I read that somewhere too and kept an ear out for it. Never did encounter it though. This is the first time I have heard of 毛唐 so that could have been used to the same effect. On a side note would you list all the dictionaries you recommend? I got a short subscription to KOD (Green Goddess Online) to try it out and, while not as good for compound words as eijiro it is pretty amazing. I would just like to see it all in one place if possible.
Back on topic:
JimmySeal Wrote:It doesn't appear that anyone has expressed a negative sentiment towards 外国人 besides dilandau23 in post #21Ya, it doesn't "really" bother me but was does bother me is when I am with a group of friends and they correct me because they prefer 外国人 to my 外人. Its really more rooted in my general dislike for all things PC, which is why I used pompous to describe it. What I was getting at and still feel is that, since this is a second language for us anyway, is there any reason we should take offense at this word or that just because someone tells us we should? I can understand if you grow up in a culture where you are told something like "don't use the 'ga'-word", otherwise it seems like extra baggage that I see no reason to carry. I am sure some racist crazy could use 外国人 (or maybe even "dish-licker"!) just as effectively as 外人 in hate propaganda.
vosmiura Wrote:I'll take 外人 in Japan over being called an alien in US.I didn't know America was exclusive in the usage of that word. Is it?
外人 - vosmiura - 2007-10-12
dilandau23 Wrote:Well, according to the dictionary it's a valid (old) word for "belonging to a foreign country", but in Britain the use must have gone out of common use, since I have never heard it used for anything other than extraterrestrials. I think under normal circumstances, calling a foreigner an alien would sound derrogatory.vosmiura Wrote:I'll take 外人 in Japan over being called an alien in US.I didn't know America was exclusive in the usage of that word. Is it?
外人 - Megaqwerty - 2007-10-12
dilandau23 Wrote:Lets not forget without 外人 there would never have been the "Gaijin Smash!". So I am curious WHY it bothers people so much?Wow! I never ever heard of this, but I most definitely plan on reading the archives: this guy is awesome, no doubt about that.
resolve Wrote:A Japanese person I was talking to recently was saying 外人 was the original word, and that it didn't originally have a negative meaning. However, some people started to feel that it was not politically correct enough, and thus 外国人 started to be used as well.According to the infallible [English] Wikipedia article on 外人, the term originally meant enemy in some 13th century piece and 外国人 didn't emerge until the Meiji era, comparatively recently. If I cared to trod through it, the Japanese article would probably shed some more light.
外人 - naniwa - 2007-10-13
I think some people are being quite oversensitive about possible negative nuances in the term 外人.
As foreigners in Japan, most of us experience extraordinary hospitality and instant unconditional friendships simply because of the fact that we speak English. If you think it's necessary to pour over the etymological history of that word to try and discern some miniscule latent exceptionalism that may be contained within, then I suggest you do the same with some common English words, starting with "hysterical", from the Latin "hystericus" - of the womb. Obviously this word is inately sexist in suggesting that panic-stricken, out of control, agitated, overexcited state-of-minds are the exclusive preserve of women.
In short, promise to stop using "hysterical" and you might have a bit of credibility when taking offense at 外人.
Japan is a country that continues to struggle with issues of identity and its wider role in the world. There are certainly some racist elements in this society, but taking offense when some six year old expresses a little excitment at seeing you is not going to help matters.
外人 - Megaqwerty - 2007-10-13
naniwa Wrote:Obviously [hysterical] is inately sexist in suggesting that panic-stricken, out of control, agitated, overexcited state-of-minds are the exclusived preserve of women.Would you like some delicious placenta? It's freshly baked! We'll cut up your cervix if you don't! A lot of Latin roots don't make any sense in modern English (cake and neck, by the way). And hysteria was actually a female-exclusive psychological condition until the earlier twentieth century: it had been coined as medical terminology (probably by Freud) to name the discovered "illness".
I think the main issue here is that 外人 can be used as a racist slur: it certainly is not used like that most of the time, but the fact is that it can, and thus another term that has less potential for harm would be preferred. Additionally, nationality appears to treated in an opposite manner as it is in America (not sure about Britain here) in that everyone from Europe is considered "white", but anyone from anywhere else is considered a native Countryite. For example, Chinese and Korean people are considered アジア人, a group that Japanese also fall under, meaning that they form an in-group versus any Westerners who are placed, literally, outside.
But then again I'm opposed to the Americanism movement of the 50's and 60's (Latino-American? Huh?).
外人 - Django - 2007-10-13
kyotokanji Wrote:The situation though is so deeply immersed into society that it just becomes a continuous cylcle of predujice and lies that trickles down to the bottom, comes nack up and then down again. Rather like a water wheel. just little things keep this going all the time. I have often heard teachers at my JHS say "gaikokujin" when they mean "English speakers". Suggesting to the kids that all non-Japanese are English speakers. This sin't just to save time, it is what they actualy believe to be true.I agree that both 外人 and 外国人 are terms that too easily pigeonhole people who look a certain way. For me one of the problems is that in many cases Japanese people will, when talking to a westerner (well, when talking to me at any rate), tend to use 外国 as a catch all phrase for the "West" and specifically for "America", a country for which, though I am not a citizen, I have often been seen to be a spokesperson. When I lived in Japan I disliked the simplistic dualities in which discussions involving nationality were often framed. There was 日本 and 外国. I'm sure I'm not the only person to have been asked in "In 外国 do you have this plant/animal/custom/noodle?" Not only may I not be in a position to comment on matters in my own country, but how am I to know in how many countries udon is available. Now I know that the questioner likely did not mean to test my general knowledge so severely, but that is part of the problem. With words like 外国、外国人 and 外人 in such common use it is easy to reduce the debate to a facile 'us' and 'them' opposition.
I'm not, as some have done, putting forth an argument about their appropriateness on official and legal documentation, though in that arena too there is a case for careful and considerate wording. What I am saying is that because these words are accepted terms for describing people and places, they can serve as an easy alternative to, and prevent people from, thinking in a more nuanced way about the world and the people in it.
外人 - PrettyKitty - 2007-10-13
kyotokanji Wrote:I have often heard teachers at my JHS say "gaikokujin" when they mean "English speakers". Suggesting to the kids that all non-Japanese are English speakers. This sin't just to save time, it is what they actualy believe to be true.I don't think that's just limited to the Japanese. I mentioned something about how they were always assuming we spoke English, rather than say, any other European language. And a girl in our group said, "That's because all white people DO speak English. They aren't assuming. It's a fact."