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+--- Thread: 外人 (/thread-863.html)
外人 - yorkii - 2007-10-11
I hate this word. even 外人さん doesn't make it any better.
I hate even more the way it is used quite liberally by foreigners themselves in Japan. I am sure we all know it's racist meaning, but if we as foreigners keep using it, how can we expect the Japanese to stop?
any opinions on it?
外人 - Christoph - 2007-10-11
The Japanese won't stop, and we shouldn't expect them to. I think it should be about how we perceive the word.. when I first came to Japan, I too had a horrible disliking for this word.. but after hearing many people that I know are really nice use this word. I started to see it in a different light.
It depends how it is said, if it is said with malice, then obviously it's bad.. if it's just said causally.. then it's not big deal.
I also find that it can be a "position of authority" type thing aswell, say for example; the 校長 at my school, I know he is a nice person, he came to my wedding, he made a really nice speech about me too. But he sees no problem in referring to me and all other foreigners as 「外人」.
外人 - synewave - 2007-10-11
Personally I use 外人 as opposed to 外国人。
As for the racist vibe. I suppose one could view it as a racist slur. However we should claim it back much like the brothers have done with the word nigger.
外人 - johnzep - 2007-10-11
I find 外国人 to be a little nicer sounding. though that apparently some people use it to specify non-white foreigners and save 外人 for western, white folks.
I find the word foreigner to be a bit ugly sounding in english as well. Though I used it in the last paragraph for lack of a non-wordy alternative.
In america at the airport, there are two passport lines....one for American citizens and permanent residents....the other was labels "non-US citizens" I believe...which I though sounded nicer than the liberal use of the word "Foreigner" in the English translations at Narita....but no matter what such phrases by definition will have some sound of exclusion. So ultimately I think it is all in how it is said.
外人 - yorkii - 2007-10-11
the fact that people casual say it the problem though. People have no idea that it is a racist word. Your principal obviously didn't know either. By using a racist word as confirming ones "position of authority" is completely ridiculous. Can you imagine a boss of an English company referring to his staff as "jap's" or other such terms?
Maybe 6 months ago, the school at which I currently work had an inspection by the prefectures education department which concluded with a speech explaining which offensive and/or racist words should not be spoken in schools. among them was the word 外人. If the word is acceptable in your opinion, why would it be thought of as offensive and a word not to use around children by (at least Ibaraki's) the prefectures education department?
外人 - synewave - 2007-10-11
As far as Heisig goes his keywords are spot on. Outside person
Not using the word gaijin won't suddenly make racist Japs
model citizens.
外人 - dingomick - 2007-10-11
'Gaijin' used to bother me a bit, but not much anymore.
What bothers me is the mindset it reflects. If you are not of Japanese descent, you are an outsider, you are not Japanese. Period. I feel horrible for the increasing number of Japanese kids who are white/black/dark because one of their parents is but who will never be considered Japanese.
The humorous but sad reflection of all this is how the vast majority of Japanese traveling in other countries refer to that countries people as 'foreigners'!! The Japanese have serious problems with race vs. nationality married with their geocentric worldview. Calling another countries own residents foreigners paints this bright and clear.
外人 - kyotokanji - 2007-10-11
What other word is there to describe someone who isn't from japan? It's not the word in itself that is offensive, just the context that it is used in. Do you expect people to say " nihon igai no hito"?
The only thing that annoys me is that "gaijin" often refers to a caucasian but a Korean or Chinese is often refered to as "ajiajin" etc. So, to say that people are more outside than others because of their race is irritating to me.
Sorry about my Romaji, just that this computer always goes funny when I start playing around with the font.
外人 - johnzep - 2007-10-11
yorkii Wrote:...the prefectures education department which concluded with a speech explaining which offensive and/or racist words should not be spoken in schools. among them was the word 外人. If the word is acceptable in your opinion, why would it be thought of as offensive and a word not to use around children by (at least Ibaraki's) the prefectures education department?That's good they said it's not a good classroom word...what did they recommend in it's place? 外人さん？ インターナショナルの人？
Language is tricky...words develop meanings and usage organicaly over time and to change word usage is like swimming against the current. Sometimes it works...for example gender neutral words like "salesman --> salesperson" or "看護婦 --> 看護師"
But even in the west some people scoffed at saying "businessperson" instead of "businessman" and cosidered it politically correct stupidity. Efforts to reform, change, or curb the usage of 外人 will take a long time...I don't see a majority of middle aged people changing their ways...but maybe the kids from your school will be part of the first wave.
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-11
johnzep Wrote:That's good they said it's not a good classroom word...what did they recommend in it's place? 外人さん？ インターナショナルの人？外国人 is the much less offensive sibling of 外人. I think that's what they were going for.
I once heard someone use "国籍不明" as a term for "foreigner." I wasn't sure whether to be offended or to laugh my ass off at their small worldview.
外人 - kyotokanji - 2007-10-11
The situation though is so deeply immersed into society that it just becomes a continuous cylcle of predujice and lies that trickles down to the bottom, comes nack up and then down again. Rather like a water wheel. just little things keep this going all the time. I have often heard teachers at my JHS say "gaikokujin" when they mean "English speakers". Suggesting to the kids that all non-Japanese are English speakers. This sin't just to save time, it is what they actualy believe to be true.
But at the end of the day, i try not to let it bother me. I'd rather have someone call me gaijin than someone throw a brick through my window with a nazi swastika on it. this is the type of racism that many people suffer in the "multi-cultural" and "liberal" west.
外人 - yorkii - 2007-10-11
@John: of course they corrected 外人 to 外国人。 are you trying to be facetious? I'm sure you know that 外国人 is the more commonly accepted word.
外人 - johnzep - 2007-10-12
yeah, I wrote that post too quickly before lunch...
it should have said "Did they recommend 外国人? Or did they recommend something else"
I know some people offended by both, so I didn't know if the prefecture peeps had lumped together 外人 and 外国人 as inappropriate for in the classroom.
外人 - kyotokanji - 2007-10-12
What will they use instead? will they have to point at you and say "his lot"?
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-12
I think 異邦人 is a fun word.
外人 - johnzep - 2007-10-12
in my old apartment building there was me and another American dude. I noticed that someone had written a small 外 on both of our apartment number plates. Not sure who wrote it, but I figure it was either the apartment manager, the NHK peeps, salespeople, or door-to-door religious peeps.... But whoever it was, I thought it was in poor taste and my neighbor was really pissed. (though a little fingernail polish remover got rid of the offending mark).
anyways, not much of a point to this story other than it was my first run in with the notorious 外. And I guess it shows how usage is important...I still can't believe someone thought it would be ok to write on our homes to more or less say "Caution: foreigners"....
外人 - synewave - 2007-10-12
If having 外 written outside my appartment would keep "NHK peeps, salespeople, or door-to-door religious peeps.... " away, I'd write it myself!
Much better than other kanji graffiti like 肛 for example.
外人 - Christoph - 2007-10-12
yorkii Wrote:the fact that people casual say it the problem though. People have no idea that it is a racist word. Your principal obviously didn't know either. By using a racist word as confirming ones "position of authority" is completely ridiculous. Can you imagine a boss of an English company referring to his staff as "jap's" or other such terms?I certainly wasn't saying that he was using the word 「外人」 to confirm anything.. yes I do quite agree that would be ridiculous. Perhaps things are a little different here in Shizuoka. There certainly hasn't been anything here like the inspection you spoke of.
Maybe 6 months ago, the school at which I currently work had an inspection by the prefectures education department which concluded with a speech explaining which offensive and/or racist words should not be spoken in schools. among them was the word 外人. If the word is acceptable in your opinion, why would it be thought of as offensive and a word not to use around children by (at least Ibaraki's) the prefectures education department?
I think that putting 「外人」 on the same level as "Jap" or any offensive term targeting a particular race is a bit strong.
All I was trying to say was that there was no malice when he used the word. Also, considering I can do very little about people using the word(without risking my job), I think trying to see it as not so negative is a good way to go.
外人 - yorkii - 2007-10-12
Christoph Wrote:when I say "position of authority" I mean he has authority already, and is used to saying whatever the hell he feels like(not just to foreigners, to anyone) and PC bollocks can go to ***** hell, he is the boss. He wasn't using it to confirm anything, he just uses it because it's a word like any other. It is our PC view of this word that makes it so negative, don't look at the word, look at the person. I have met plenty of leprechaun who say 「外国人」 or are cautious about how they speak but are completely horrible people.this statement is confusing. If he is the boss and saying what he likes, that doesn't mean that doing so is not wrong. Again, by being the boss and acting in this manner he is inadvertently "using it to confirm" such.
If such nice people use 外人 freely, and they are so nice, a subtle "Erm, don't use that word please..." would suffice surely?
外人 - Christoph - 2007-10-12
Sorry Yorkii, I forgot I'd posted that... and then decided that what I'd said wasn't exactly well thought out.. so I edited my post.
yorkii Wrote:Again, by being the boss and acting in this manner he is inadvertently "using it to confirm" such.Yes, I agree, but I don't seem to get offended to the point where I feel a need to tell him not to use certain words.
If such nice people use 外人 freely, and they are so nice, a subtle "Erm, don't use that word please..." would suffice surely?
He is just acting like a normal Japanese person, asking/expecting him not to act/use certain words when speaking with those of a lower "rank" or whatever, is a bit much. When you speak to children do you use polite words? that's just how he is acting.
外人 - dilandau23 - 2007-10-12
You know honestly I never understood why people get offended at the word. I mean how does one "know" it is offensive? My guess is because someone told them. It isn't like we have a lifelong culture of accepting the word as offensive. I just choose to ignore those in-the-know people and live a happy life of self inflicted naivety. For me its shorter and faster and less pompous sounding than 外国人. I would even go so far as to say I have grown to dislike 外国人 more. Lets not forget without 外人 there would never have been the "Gaijin Smash!". So I am curious WHY it bothers people so much?
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-12
Christoph Wrote:When you speak to children do you use polite words? that's just how he is acting.Not necessarily, but I don't use cuss words or racial epithets, and 外人 is a derogatory word for certain people and doesn't belong in the workplace, no matter who's using it.
外人 - Mighty_Matt - 2007-10-12
Ok, so it's a Friday afternoon and my brain is a little fried from marking exercise books (I am a cat. I am a cat. I am a cat.) but I don't see why 外人 or 外国人 are 'racist' words. Is it because they tend to be used for 'white' foreigners instead of all foreigners?
*confused of Koga*
外人 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-12
外人 is only racist to the extent that the Japanese consider themselves a "race." But it is derogatory.
外人 - wrightak - 2007-10-12
JimmySeal Wrote:外人 is only racist to the extent that the Japanese consider themselves a "race." But it is derogatory.I also held the same opinion but I've been told by Japanese people that they do not consider 外人 to be any more derogatory than 外国人 and are surprised that some people do. They consider it just an abbreviated form of the word.
Of course, Japanese people are hardly in a position to be objective about whether the word might be offensive or not. Surely, you might say, it's up to the person being described to determine whether they should take offense. What makes this interesting is that there is an argument saying that the people being described might not be in the best position to judge, since it's not their language.
I think that what's happened is that non-Japanese people have felt excluded and separated when described as a foreigner and the abbreviated form seems to make this exclusion seem even more casual. I believe that the concepts of inside and outside are ingrained more heavily into Japanese culture than others and this causes pain for outsiders who wish to be inside (eg. foreigners in Japan). The term 外人, for some people, serves as an apparent crystallisation of this unintended exclusive attitude.