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+--- Thread: AJATT fosters depression? (/thread-8593.html)
AJATT fosters depression? - IceCream - 2011-11-24
ok, i don't think this discussion is going anywhere, since either i'm not expressing myself clearly, or you aren't reading my posts properly.
I haven't said that it's necessary to enjoy it, or that you NEED to enjoy it to succeed. What i have said is that:
a.) if you are considering knowing japanese as the end goal, and not simply enjoying the process of learning it, it's more easy to become isolated during that period of time where you're focusing on attaining a level that you're happy with.
b.) if you don't enjoy learning languages, you should really consider carefully how worthwhile it is to spend your time learning them, since it's a never ending process, and is going to take quite a long time to get to the point where you can even follow interesting conversations with any fluency. This being the case, you're probably better off spending your time doing something you do enjoy doing. (yes, there are situations where it would be worthwhile nontheless... being able to speak to your spouses family, or things like that. But in general, it probably isn't.)
I didn't intend to insult you, there's nothing wrong with learning a little of lots of different languages to get by more easily in those countries. Perhaps i don't understand the scale by which you're rating them. But i haven't ever heard anyone who is really advanced in any language rate themselves by a scale like that, so i just assumed that's what you meant.
I don't have a language list... i only know Japanese to any reasonable level.
But i suppose if i were to list all languages i know bits of, it'd include french, spanish, german, russian, chinese, arabic, and so on.
AJATT fosters depression? - sesshomaru - 2011-11-24
IceCream Wrote:Again, you seem to be equating hard work with unenjoyable. Actually, i think something being hard work or in some sense difficult is often what makes it enjoyable...........You might find the video below interesting. While its not centered around "language learning" the findings on 'what motivates us' some of what has been introduced.
ok, i don't think this discussion is going anywhere, since either i'm not expressing myself clearly, or you aren't reading my posts properly.
I haven't said that it's necessary to enjoy it, or that you NEED to enjoy it to succeed. What i have said is that:
a.) if you are considering knowing japanese as the end goal, and not simply enjoying the process of learning it, it's more easy to become isolated during that period of time where you're focusing on attaining a level that you're happy with.
b.) if you don't enjoy learning languages, you should really consider carefully how worthwhile it is to spend your time learning them, since it's a never ending process, and is going to take quite a long time to get to the point where you can even follow interesting conversations with any fluency. This being the case, you're probably better off spending your time doing something you do enjoy doing. (yes, there are situations where it would be worthwhile nontheless... being able to speak to your spouses family, or things like that. But in general, it probably isn't.)
I didn't intend to insult you, there's nothing wrong with learning a little of lots of different languages to get by more easily in those countries. Perhaps i don't understand the scale by which you're rating them. But i haven't ever heard anyone who is really advanced in any language rate themselves by a scale like that, so i just assumed that's what you meant.
I don't have a language list... i only know Japanese to any reasonable level.
But i suppose if i were to list all languages i know bits of, it'd include french, spanish, german, russian, chinese, arabic, and so on.
AJATT fosters depression? - ivanov - 2011-11-24
IceCream Wrote:I didn't intend to insult you, there's nothing wrong with learning a little of lots of different languages to get by more easily in those countries. Perhaps i don't understand the scale by which you're rating them.I think he's referring to this scale.
AJATT fosters depression? - SammyB - 2011-11-24
I think the distinction being made here is between intrinsic and extrinsic/instrumental forms of motivation.
leosmith is suggesting that learning language for the sake of something else, e.g. access to media in that language, job prospects, romantic pursuits, whatever, is a significant and sufficient reason to learn a language.
IceCream seems to be suggesting that learning a language not for the sake of something else, but rather for enjoyment of and interest in the task itself will give you the best results and make you most likely to succeed in the long term.
Actually both of you are right. Extrinsic/instrumental motivation to do something is valid and it would be wrong to say its not a sufficient reason to do something. However it is also true that 100s, probably even 1000s, of studies document how intrinsic motivation and doing something for enjoyment of the task itself results in better persistence and long-term success.
Case closed?
Correct me if I misinterpreted either of you.
AJATT fosters depression? - IceCream - 2011-11-25
um... i really wasn't trying to make a comment about how successful you'll be at learning a language with either extrinsic or internal motivation... or trying to say that you'll fail with external motivation only (though yes, i was talking about internal motivation in other respects)
AJATT fosters depression? - TheKorv - 2011-11-25
IceCream Wrote:i was refferring to the wider philosphical point that chasing goals without enjoying the process of getting there, and thinking the benefits lie somewhere in the future instead, is a bad way to go about things.Extrinsic motivation "is a bad way to go about things".
You may have not talked about success or failure, but SammyB still interpreted your posts in a very insightful way.
AJATT fosters depression? - dizmox - 2011-11-28
Regarding England being universally welcoming to immigration:
lol
AJATT fosters depression? - harusame - 2011-11-28
dizmox Wrote:Regarding England being universally welcoming to immigration:Wow, that is really spectacular. Was she drunk or something?
Nice to know the stereotypes of the American South are not unique to us. o.O
AJATT fosters depression? - SomeCallMeChris - 2011-11-28
Hnnnh.... the comments are pouring into that video too fast to read, mostly, but one flicking by claimed that the woman has been taken into custody (for what, exactly, I don't know. In most of the world, being rude, ignorant, or racist are not crimes, even when it's all three together... )
Ahh, here we go, it is true:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/28/tram-passenger-racist-abuse-arrested?INTCMP=SRCH
Well, well.
AJATT fosters depression? - dizmox - 2011-11-28
I didn't even know we had trams. O:
AJATT fosters depression? - aphasiac - 2011-11-28
harusame Wrote:She does appear to be drunk. Also bare in mind the reason this video is getting to many comments and trending on twitter is that it's a pretty abnormal situation; the UK is pretty open to immigrants, and if people do feel like that they tend to keep their views to themselves.dizmox Wrote:Regarding England being universally welcoming to immigration:Wow, that is really spectacular. Was she drunk or something?
Nice to know the stereotypes of the American South are not unique to us. o.O
AJATT fosters depression? - nadiatims - 2011-11-28
Wow. I feel sorry for that kid.
I think UK police surely have better things to do than pursue this though...What can they arrest her for anyway? thought crimes? being annoying?
AJATT fosters depression? - dtcamero - 2011-11-28
i'm just amazed she survived the train ride. the racial situation being a bit tenser in the states, I think the outcome would not have been in her favor here. She'd be lucky to make it to the next stop after the "nicaragua" comment...
AJATT fosters depression? - aphasiac - 2011-11-28
nadiatims Wrote:Wow. I feel sorry for that kid.The Guardian link states she was arrested for "racially aggravated public order offence.".
I think UK police surely have better things to do than pursue this though...What can they arrest her for anyway? thought crimes? being annoying?
So yeh, "public order" bill, which are a set of laws that means you have to act mildly sane / respectful in public. Same set of laws that would get you arrested for stripping naked in the street, or getting very drunk and puking then passing out in the middle of a motorway, or if you got out a super-soaker and started firing water at bus passengers.
Remember freedom of speech is not protected in the UK (or most of Europe), so you can't just say what you like when you like if it serious offends people.