+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: Yamato numerals (/thread-8472.html)
Yamato numerals - nexirae - 2011-09-28
As in, ひと、ふた、み、よ、いつ、む、なな、や、ここの、とお、もも、ち、よろず
Are there any times when one should use もも、ち、よろず?
I've heard よろず precisely once, and it sounded like a set phrase. I've only heard ち in names and such. I've never heard もも.
Also, are there any other Yamato numerals?
Yamato numerals - nadiatims - 2011-09-28
もも is used in names occasionally eg. 百田.
千 appears in some compounds 千代、八千代、千鳥足、千切る、千切れ雲 etc.
よろず is pretty rare. I think I've encountered it maybe five time max, usually with the meaning 'everything'. It can also mean 'jack of all trades' though.
Yamato numerals - JimmySeal - 2011-09-28
I believe I've seen もも in a few surnames, but that's it. 百々 (どど) seems to be somewhat common for surnames too, but I'm not 100% sure that reading is of Japanese origin.
よろず pops up from time to time in the word 八百万 (やおよろず), and gets mention in Spirited Away.
Yamato numerals - nadiatims - 2011-09-28
there's also 廿 (はた) which means 20. eg. はたち (twenty years old), 廿日 (twentieth day of the month) and 廿日市市 (place name in Hiroshima)
Yamato numerals - yudantaiteki - 2011-09-29
みそ also shows up in みそじ（thirty years old) -- you can also use 三十歳（さんじゅっさい), though. I've seen よそじ too.
Outside of place names and a couple of set phrases, I have never seen もも, ち, or よろず used in modern Japanese. There are other ones, I think. (In older Japanese they're used a lot; the national anthem has 千代（ちよ）に八千代（やちよ）に.
Yamato numerals - magamo - 2011-09-29
There are useful general rules for when to use yamato numbers. The most obvious one is when you use the general purpose counter つ:
ひとつ, ふたつ, みっつ, よっつ, いつつ, むっつ, ななつ, やっつ, ここのつ, とう (You don't use a counter for ten when counting by つ.).
Another general rule is that you use the yamato version when counting with a counter which also works as the word that represents the things you're counting the number of. Here is a very old post about when to use ひと, いち, and いっ when counting the number of things:
magamo Wrote:In general, you use ひと when the counter can be used as a word you're counting, and you say いち when the reading of the counter doesn't make sense as a word or means a different thing from what you're counting. For example, 皿 (さら) is a word meaning "dish," so you use ひと if you're counting the number of dishes. 一台 is いちだい because "台 (だい)" means "stand," "rest," "rack," etc and you're not counting those things; the counter is usually used for cars, computers and so on.The above rule generally hols for slightly larger numbers as well. But as the number gets larger, pretty much every counter prefers the usual number system. In a sense, the general counter つ is a very rare exception. There doesn't seem to be a clear cut line for this, but 2 is generally ふた if 1 is ひと. 3 still behaves similarly to a lesser extent, with the notable exception being the counter for people: ひとり, ふたり, さんにん... It would be rare to count up to more than 3 with yamato numbers.
"いっ" is actually a modified version of いち. This kind of sound change is called 促音便 in Japanese grammar and very complected, so I only give a rough rule here:
き, ち, り, ひ, く, つ, る, ふ (i.e., "k", "t", "r", "h" with "i" or "u") in the middle of words often become an obstruent "っ" similar to the consonant it precedes (i.e a stop in the case of k, t and p but without the burst, and a fricative in the case of s) when it is followed by k, s, t, or h (p).
So 一本 is いっぽん because 本 (ほん) means a book, which is not what you're counting because this counter is used for pencils and whatnot, and ち is followed by ぽ. Similarly, 一回 is いっかい because 回 (かい) isn't a word in itself, and the counter begins with a "k" sound.
Of course, those rules have exceptions, but I guess it's better than nothing. Also, the 促音便 rule holds for any words, not only numbers and counters. For instance, 作曲 is pronounced さっきょく, not さくきょく (The first く in さくきょく is followed by き which belongs to the k-series, and hence it becomes っ so you say さっきょく).
Since you bring up the term "yamato," if you know what it means, the above rule can be summed up as "Use yamato numbers when the counter is a yamato word."
Notable examples of other kinds of uses are:
Little kids' ages in baby talk (You say ひとつ for 一歳, ふたつ for 二歳, etc. It can sound condescending if you use this for older kids (or sound too childish if you're the little kid!).),
Months when counted by 月 (つき), e.g., 一月 (ひとつき = a moth), 二月 (ふたつき = two months), 三月 (みつき = three months), and so on. Note that this is simply following the "Use yamato numbers when the counter is a yamato word" rule. But the sense "month" as つき is rather rare, so learners might fail to notice. 月日 (つきひ) as in 月日が流れる is an example of use of this sense.
The number of spoken lines (一言 (ひとこと), 二言 (ふたこと), and 三言 (みこと)) and the number of times (一度, (ひとたび = once), 二度 (ふたたび = twice, This is rare, by the way), and 三度 (みたび = thrice)). These counters are yamato words as well, so they're following the simple rule. But it may not be clear to a learner that they're legit words representing the things they're counting the number of. You might hear these used as legit words in sentences like 度々申し訳ありません (たびたびもうしわけありません = Sorry for bothering you again).
[Edit] There is another word with the same kana as 二度 (ふたたび), i.e., 再び (ふたたび), which means "again." You may say this is also a use of yamato numbers.
Certain ages. 二十歳 (はたち = 20 years old) and 三十路 (みそじ = 30 years old) are among the most common Japanese words.
December 30. It's called 大晦日 (おおみそか). The みそ is the same みそ as in みそじ, which means 30 years old. This word is definitely one of the most common Japanese ones you must hear many times every year.
There are many other examples such as 二重 (ふたえ), 二親 (ふたおや), 双子 (ふたご), 二つ折り (ふたつおり), 二つ返事 (ふたつへんじ), 二手 (ふたて), ふたなり, 双葉 (ふたば), and 二股 (ふたまた). These are all quite common words you'll hear a bunch of times. Some have versions for other numbers, e.g., 一重 (ひとえ), 三つ子 (みつご), 三つ折り (みつおり), and 四つ葉 (よつば, though the meaning is a bit different from the ふた version.). Your dictionary should contain all of them. (Well, ふたなり might be a bit rarer than others, I guess.) Sorry for listing only ふた words. There are too many ひと words. And it's 2:30 am here so I don't feel like thinking of み words and such...
As you can see, they're all yamato words, which means most of them are quite common and used very frequently in everyday conversation. So I think you'll learn them all soon as long as your learning method is based on real usage of the modern Japanese language. (If you don't know what yamato words are, think of the equivalent of Germanic words in English such as "give," "take," and "free." They appear not only as single words but also as combinations like "give in" and "take up." The above Japanese combination words with ふた are, in a sense, like these oft-used-and-sound-less-formal words in English. So they often have more formal equivalents such as 双子 <-> 双生児 and 双葉 <-> 子葉.)
Also, yamato numbers are used in the names of people, places, and so on. But this is the kind of thing where you either know the reading or have no idea how to read it. There might be rules for this, but I don't think they're worth learning unless you're into linguistics.
Also, yamato numbers can have meanings which are not "number" per se. For example, 万 (よろず) sure is 10,000 but can also mean "numerous," "all," "every," and so on. Since it's a little tedious to list them all here and I'm getting tired writing this, please look up each yamato numbers in your dictionary for yourself.
There are many words and compounds that have yamato numbers. But I'm not sure if you need to see them as numbers, though they sure are fun facts if you're interested in etymology and such. Anyway, to the average learner, I think the only merit to see them that way is that they might work as good mnemonics if you're having trouble memorizing their kanjification.