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+--- Thread: Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 (/thread-844.html)
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-05
JIS level 1 is a set of 2965 characters that includes the joyo and jinmeiyo kanji, and is the set of kanji tested on 漢検 準一級. RTK1+3 cover most of that list, but I found that there are 114 JIS level 1 kanji that it doesn't cover. Here they are for your viewing pleasure:
姶穐虻厩閏荏盈頴鴛珂禾鈎劃椛栢萱桓澗徽掬砧渠釧沓粂卦祁荊戟捲乎鈷巷庚砿鵠甑艮堺碕咋鴫蔀戎廠樟湘蒋壬栴舛岨曾楚匝鎗其柁岱腿瀧鐸蜘瀦苧鍔轍甜菟鍍塘宕梼淘涛董鐙鴇橡椴乍迩禰廼盃楳矧硲櫨醗塙釆匪毘弼斌冨弗娩戊鉾桝亦緬摸杢涌猷莱葎漣魯婁榔
Several of these appear as primitives in RTK, and I know that 堺 is the name of an area in Osaka. If you're looking for another step after RTK3, this is probably a good place to start.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Serge - 2007-10-05
JimmySeal Wrote:姶穐虻厩閏荏盈頴鴛珂禾鈎劃椛栢萱桓澗徽掬砧渠釧沓粂卦祁荊戟捲乎鈷巷庚砿鵠甑艮堺碕咋鴫蔀戎廠樟湘蒋壬栴舛岨曾楚匝鎗其柁岱腿瀧鐸蜘瀦苧鍔轍甜菟鍍塘宕梼淘涛董鐙鴇橡椴乍迩禰廼盃楳矧硲櫨醗塙釆匪毘弼斌冨弗娩戊鉾桝亦緬摸杢涌猷莱葎漣魯婁榔Hm... It's very rewarding to see that I already know the vast majority of these from my Chinese studies. The same applies for the fish kanji from the neighbouring thread... :-)
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Chadokoro_K - 2007-10-05
It looks like 9 of these kanji are simple Heisig primitives and 4 of them are complex Heisig primitives (which even if Heisig didn't assign them their own primitive meaning they appear tightly enough bound together in my stories to form a "complex primitive" image).
To this list of primitives that are JIS1 kanji in their own right I would suggest adding "march" -- 戌 -- which is the kanji for "Year of the Dog". Even though it is not a JIS1 kanji it does complete the list of Chinese zodiac signs.
Also the following three are either variants or old forms of RTK 1+3 kanji:
冨 -- variant or old form of RTK 193
曾 -- variant or old form of RTK 501
頴 -- variant or old form of RTK 2790
Does anyone know if any other kanji on this list are variants or old forms of RTK 1+3 kanji?
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-05
Can't answer your question, Chadokoro, but I can say that 乎 would do well at the beginning of RTK2, as it's the progenitor of the kana ヲ. 其 appears in classical texts as the kanji for それ and その (其の). 戎 (which is part of 賊) appears in about 10 of my students' names as it's the character for えびす, and I've seen kids in my calligraphy class writing the character 甜 before.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Chadokoro_K - 2007-10-05
Thanks for the info, JimmySeal.
In addition,
亦 can be used as また, meaning "again; and; also"
緬 is listed in Halpern's big dictionary as meaning "fine thread"
as well as being the kanji for Burma [rare usage]
釧 seems to be used in place (area) names in Hokkaido
Does anyone else have more info on the kanji in the list provided by JimmySeal?
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Katsuo - 2007-10-05
Chadokoro_K Wrote:Does anyone else have more info on the kanji in the list provided by JimmySeal?Here are some of my personal notes on some of the above kanji in case anyone finds them useful:
1. 穐 means "autumn" as do 秋 and 龝. The latter is fun to draw.
2. 虻 is an "abu", a horsefly. To learn the kanji, just remember that if you are bitten by this insect you are likely to perish. There is an expression 虻蜂取らず, which means "to go for two things at once and catch neither".
3. 鴛 is part of 鴛鴦 "oshidori" (mandarin duck). There is an expression 鴛鴦夫婦 meaning "a loving couple".
4. 禾 is radical no. 115 "nogi" which Heisig calls "wheat". Note that nogi comes from the parts of the kanji "no + gi", i.e. katakana "no" ノ on top of tree 木 "ki" (which changes phonetically to "gi").
5. 釧 this can mean "kushiro" a bracelet from the Jomon period. Also 釧路 "Kushiro" is a town in Hokkaido.
6. 粂 this doesn't seem to have any independent meaning, it's just used as a surname (maybe like maro 麿 in Utamaro 歌麿). Looking at the elements you have ku + kome = kukome, so just drop the "ko" and you get kume. Incidentally there is an Island west of Okinawa called Kumejima, 久米島 i.e. with 粂 split into its components.
7. 卦 I call this one "divination". 八卦 "hakke" means "fortune telling, divination". There is an expression: 当たるも八卦当たらぬも八卦 meaning: Fortune telling is a hit-or-miss affair.
8. 庚 is the 7th calendar sign. For info on the ten calendar signs see Halpern pgs 1783-4. (They are: 甲 乙 丙 丁 戊 己 庚 辛 壬 癸).
9. 堺 this is a variation on 界 Heisig 562 "world".
10. 湘 is part of 湘南 Shonan (the seashore area along Kanagawa).
11. 蒋is part of the name of 蒋介石 Chiang Kaishek.
12. 壬 This is the 9th calendar sign. (Heisig primitive "porter"). See note above about calendar signs.
13. 楚 I call this one "tasteful". It is part of the expression 四面楚歌 shimensoka, meaning "being surrounded by enemies on all sides; being betrayed [forsaken] by everybody".
14. 鎗 I call this one "metal lance". Compare it to Heisig 槍 "lance" no. 2516.
15. 其 I call this one "that". Notice connection between "this" 斯 (Heisig 2890) and "that" 其.
16. 瀧 is variation on 滝 waterfall, of course.
17. 蜘 is part of "spider" 蜘蛛. Some kanji are best learnt as a pair, e.g. 蜘蛛 (kumo) spider, 蒟蒻 konnyaku, 蜻蛉 (tombo) dragonfly, 鴛鴦 (oshidori) mandarin duck, 薔薇 (bara) rose, etc.
18. 轍 I call this one "wheel track". Bob Dylan's album "Blood on the Tracks" is called 血の轍 "chi no wadachi" in Japanese.
19. 董 I call this one "curio". 骨董品 is "antiques". (Incidentally, Manchester United have a Chinese footballer called 董方卓, Dong Fangzhou.)
20. 鐙 I call this one "stirrup". Easy to remember: A stirrup is a piece of metal that helps you ascend your horse.
21. 盃 is a variation of 杯 (Heisig 1219).
22. 楳 is a variation of 梅 plum.
23. 毘 I call this one "lend a hand". It's part of 毘沙門天 "Bishamonten" who is one of the 七福神 (shichi fukujin), the seven gods of good fortune.
24. 娩 I call this "bear children". 分娩室 bunbenshitsu is the delivery room at a hospital.
25. 戊 This is the 5th calendar sign. See note above about calendar signs.
26. 鉾 main use seems to be "festival float with a decorative halberd". That's quite a mouthful. Alternatively, if you are a long-time sumo fan you may remember Terao's elder brother Sakahoko 逆鉾.
27. 魯 One meaning of this is "Russia". I remember it as follows: Having been beaten by the Americans to put a man on the moon, the Russians put a fish on the sun instead.
28. 婁 the top part of this is one is unusual. Heisig no. 2403 "quack" 薮 has a more common variation 藪 that incorporates this character.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Chadokoro_K - 2007-10-05
Wow...thanks for the wealth of info, Katsuo!
And thanks, too, for the story hints on some of them.
Anyone else have info to share?
Hopefully we can whittle these additional 114 kanji down even further.
I will definitely contribute more when I study these further, but it is great to have a head start with shared info.
Cheers!
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-06
Katsuo Wrote:28. 婁 the top part of this is one is unusual. Heisig no. 2403 "quack" 薮 has a more common variation 藪 that incorporates this character.Yes, in a few kanji, the top part of 婁 has been simplified to 米 and appears in the well-known kanji 数 and 楼, which are traditionally 數 and 樓. And since 藪 contains 數, it too has been simplified to 薮.
宕 - There is a region in my town called 愛宕 (あたご) and a hostel there called the 愛宕旅館.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-06
Just as an extra bit of trivia, there are 156 RTK kanji that aren't in JIS level 1. Here they are:
丼仄侑倅做凛刹剪勁匕厖曼呎咎嘔嘲囁國毀壽夥奎婉婢嬌孕屁屏崚嵌嶽巫已幟彗彙悛憑懺截抉掟旱昴晏晨晟暈暉暝曖曰檜栞梟梵棘椰槃樒橇毬沐泪洸洵洒涅渕渾滉滲漱澪濾炬烙煕燎燿狒狡猥猾珈琲瑶甦痒痰痺皓眩眸睾瞑祀祟祓站笙箋籤絆絨綺綸翔聘聚肛胚胱脛脩腑舅艘芻苺茉莉莨菫萬藝虔蟄詢諄譬赳跪躇躊躓躾輻迪逞邁鋏鑿雉頌颯饅騙驢鮨鸚鹵麒黎鼈鼾
Interestingly, many very useful ones (including the unforgettable 曰) are among them, which goes to show how somewhat arbitrary the JIS level designation is.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Jarvik7 - 2007-10-07
No 丼? The horror!
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - tomhogers - 2007-10-08
Information about the 114 additional kanji for Nihongo Noryoku Shiken level 1 was given, in 2003, in Mary Sisk Noguchi's excellent "KanjiClinic".
Take a look at the following page:
http://www.kanjiclinic.com/extra114.htm
Tom
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - tomhogers - 2007-10-08
So, you've finished RTK I+III and are now studying the list of the 114 (156 RTK) Kanji additional to NNS level 1. Don't forget that the official Jinmei Kanji list (Kanji used in Japanese names) was changed in 2004, and most lists/files available on the web are of the old version.
Take a look at the following thread I started in Wakan at that time:
http://wakan.manga.cz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=310&highlight=jinmei
The new (and old) list may be downloaded from:
http://wakan.manga.cz/files/JinmeiKanji.zip
Tom
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Katsuo - 2007-10-08
Here's another list:
Regarding tomhogers' post about the 488 new name kanji; 424 of those are in the Heisig books. The following 64 are the ones not in Heisig:
乎俐其冨凉凰厩圓堺堯塙塡壬娩宕實巷庚徠惺戊戟掬捲摑昊晄曾魯椛梛楚槇樟橙櫂沓湘漣焰煌珂珀琥盃砧禮禰禱禾稟徽羚萠莱萱董蒋蕾蠟祁釧閏驍
One of the above characters does not appear correctly in my browser (in fact not in Firefox, but it's ok in Safari). It's Unicode 6451, a variant of 掴.
Edit: In fact there are 3 more, 榮遙釉, for a total of 67.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Chadokoro_K - 2007-10-09
Thanks for this list, Katsuo. It is good to know that RTK1&3 cover all but 64 of all those new Jinmei kanji.
I know this is going off on a tangent, but could you or the others explain how you are able to "strip" these kanji out to create these lists? I would love to be able to create lists of the gaps & holes (or overlaps) in kanji lists the way you all have done for this thread but have no idea of how to go about it. Feel free to create a new thread to answer this question if you think that best.
Thank you.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Katsuo - 2007-10-09
Chadokoro_K Wrote:...could you or the others explain how you are able to "strip" these kanji out to create these lists?I'm not sure about others' methods, but in my case I created my own kanji database using a database program. It's then a simple matter to generate lists by just typing in search criteria.
There are kanji databases on-line, but I preferred to make my own as I could set it up how I wish.
The database needs to do two things: 1) store the data; 2) have a good interface so that the user can easily get at and manipulate the data.
To set up your own database you need to be familiar with a particular database program. I use AppleWorks because it is (was) cheap and relatively simple to work out.
You then a) create an interface suitable for your needs and; b) import data into the database. Two main input methods are: 1) Painstakingly typing it in yourself bit-by-bit; 2) Importing data en masse from other sources using either the database program's import facilities or some kind of computer program. For the latter I learnt AppleScript.
For kanji, one great source of data is Jim Breen's site at Monash University. You can download his KanjiDic as a single text document and then import it into your database.
But learning how to do all this takes time and enthusiasm. It is quicker to use a database someone else has made. Anyone who has the program AppleWorks is welcome to a copy of my Kanji database.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - JimmySeal - 2007-10-09
In my case, I made a simple Java program to go through KANJIDIC line by line and spit out the kanji that were in JIS level 1 (JIS code < 5000), and didn't have a Heisig index (no L---- entry).
Then I tweaked it to output kanji that were in level 2 (JIS code >= 5000) and had a Heisig index.
Katsuo's approach is much more versatile, but more complicated at the same time.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Kieron - 2007-10-09
When I've been taken with the urge to make some lists, I can generally squeeze what I need out of the standard Unix command-line tools for text processing - sort, grep, uniq, cut, and the like. If I need something more elaborate, I usually turn to a Perl script first.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Chadokoro_K - 2007-11-06
Chadokoro_K Wrote:...could you or the others explain how you are able to "strip" these kanji out to create these lists?
Katsuo Wrote:I'm not sure about others' methods, but in my case I created my own kanji database using a database program. It's then a simple matter to generate lists by just typing in search criteria.A belated thank you for this reply. Whew, that is way above my ability. If I ever get a Mac and AppleWorks, I will ask you for a copy of your database.
...[snip]...
But learning how to do all this takes time and enthusiasm. It is quicker to use a database someone else has made. Anyone who has the program AppleWorks is welcome to a copy of my Kanji database.
Non-RTK characters in JIS level 1 - Chadokoro_K - 2007-11-06
JimmySeal and Kieron,
A belated thank you for your replies. Unfortunately what you do is also beyond my current ability, but if I ever make a try a learning how to do this stuff at least I'll know where to start.
And thanks for the links to your lists, Kieron.