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who really does the shadowing method. - jordan3311 - 2011-08-28
I was curios to see who uses the shadowing method i just started it about a week ago and i wanted to know if it has really helped in anyway. I realize that there is a shadowing thread but I wanted to know if there are any success stories from using shadowing.
who really does the shadowing method. - nadiatims - 2011-08-28
When shadowing becomes easy, as your audio comprehension increases it'll probably have some positive effect on your spoken fluency and pronunciation if done regularly. Likewise reading aloud is also a positive thing as long as it's easy and doesn't distract you from comprehending a text. I personally think attempting to shadow incomprehensible audio won't do all that much for you though.
who really does the shadowing method. - nadiatims - 2011-08-28
When you say shadowing method, what exactly do mean?
who really does the shadowing method. - Omoishinji - 2011-08-28
You should use a variety of methods. Shadowing does help. I find shadowing works best for improving pronunciations and rhythm. However, you don't need dedicated material to use the Shadowing method. Any audio source will do as along as you understand the words or have the words in front of you.
What are you doing for "Shadowing?" What material are you using for "Shadowing?"
who really does the shadowing method. - jordan3311 - 2011-08-28
I got bought http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/Shadowing-Lets-Speak-Japanese-Beginner-to-Intermediate-Level-p-16500.html
a friend was telling me that shadowing helped him a lot with speaking and I have trouble with speaking because there is no one I can speak with (T.T)
who really does the shadowing method. - jhenson - 2011-08-29
Shadowing is one tool in your Toolbox.
Depending on how you're doing it and what material you're shadowing, it could help with Pronunciation, Speed, Intonation, Rhythm, Listening Comprehension, etc.
You can use it with Audio Books, with Live Conversation, Scripted Dialog. You can do it Sub-vocally or Out loud. You can Shadow as you read along with a book or script.
who really does the shadowing method. - jordan3311 - 2011-08-29
What are some of the tools that you use if you don't mind me asking?
who really does the shadowing method. - nadiatims - 2011-08-29
tokyostyle Wrote:Doing it to audio that you don't fully understand yet seems to increase its effectiveness.What is your reasoning behind this exactly?
who really does the shadowing method. - Omoishinji - 2011-08-29
nadiatims Wrote:It is all about learning the correct rhythm of words. Being able to break words correctly.tokyostyle Wrote:Doing it to audio that you don't fully understand yet seems to increase its effectiveness.What is your reasoning behind this exactly?
Like saying 「わたしの」 instead no 「わたし の」 or 「 わたしのう」.
who really does the shadowing method. - nadiatims - 2011-08-29
But why is it more effective with audio you don't fully understand?
Doesn't that just increase the risk that you hear words incorrectly and mispronounce words, especially for beginners?
who really does the shadowing method. - Omoishinji - 2011-08-29
nadiatims Wrote:But why is it more effective with audio you don't fully understand?It is better to hear words that you don't understand, than understand words you don't know the pronunciation. The only truly correct way of learning how to pronounce a word is to hear it pronounced correctly. It is by repeatedly tying to pronounce a word correctly that one learns how to pronounce it correctly.
Doesn't that just increase the risk that you hear words incorrectly and mispronounce words, especially for beginners?
who really does the shadowing method. - pudding cat - 2011-08-29
nadiatims Wrote:But why is it more effective with audio you don't fully understand?Because you don't recognise the word you can only focus on the actual sound of it.
Doesn't that just increase the risk that you hear words incorrectly and mispronounce words, especially for beginners?
who really does the shadowing method. - ta12121 - 2011-08-29
jordan3311 Wrote:I was curios to see who uses the shadowing method i just started it about a week ago and i wanted to know if it has really helped in anyway. I realize that there is a shadowing thread but I wanted to know if there are any success stories from using shadowing.You know that, if you read out loud your brain actually process/works more. So it stimulates and works your brain. I do shadowing quite a bit(for fun as well)
who really does the shadowing method. - nest0r - 2011-08-29
I don't do shadowing. The limited studies on shadowing written by a small pool of scholars, most of which I believe I've read by now, demonstrate some utility to it but I think it's better to focus the development of your listening/speaking abilities, mediated with subvocalization, in sentence-length portions in the SRS, in combination with increased input and output where you're getting used to interference in the phonological loop and developing your chunking abilities. One of the main researchers on shadowing wrote a paper on sentence repetition that praised its merits, and that was without spaced retrieval (it also emphasized that sentence repetition is not a rote process).
But as a particular type of listening/speaking task among many, I think it pairs nicely with extensive reading. I think the way it's set up is bad, though, and only a result of limited tools to enhance it in the past rather than a legitimate need for its rigidity, and it's better to use a tool like @balloonguy's Kage Shibari or the DingLabs reader to control the ability to backloop and repeat, as repetition is key, in which case the term shadowing is mostly just a vestige of what people usually think of when they hear it.
Basically I think the utility of shadowing isn't the parroting (here I mean following closely on the heels of the audio, often without comprehension), which can be discarded, but instead the close listening and repetition (listening/subvocalizing/speaking). The timing of the repetition isn't all that important, just making sure you get the prosody and can repeat the audio if necessary to ensure you get things down accurately.
who really does the shadowing method. - pudding cat - 2011-08-29
How I do shadowing:
1) listen to audio
2) read script (not aloud) whilst listening
3) read script aloud whilst listening
4) shadow without script
I think it helps me with speaking speed and intonation because I'm making myself match native speakers. The book I use is all casual conversation on a variety of topics and I learn new words/phrases from it too which is a nice added extra
who really does the shadowing method. - Thora - 2011-08-29
nadiatims Wrote:But why is it more effective with audio you don't fully understand? Doesn't that just increase the risk that you hear words incorrectly and mispronounce words, especially for beginners?
Omoishinji Wrote:It is better to hear words that you don't understand, than understand words you don't know the pronunciation. The only truly correct way of learning how to pronounce a word is to hear it pronounced correctly. It is by repeatedly tying to pronounce a word correctly that one learns how to pronounce it correctly.The comparison was between shadowing known words and shadowing unknown words
(rather than between shadowing unknown words and not shadowing known words).
puddingcat Wrote:Because you don't recognise the word you can only focus on the actual sound of it.Yes and no.
I think shadowing incomprehensible audio will force someone to listen more actively (vs background audio) which can help with learning to hear sounds not occurring in their native language (initially) and the music of the language. Repeating can help pronunciation, but I wouldn't say it's more effective than repeating comprehensible input. (I'll use "repeating" b/c that's what I'm familiar with and it's relevant to whether knowing script or words makes a difference. I don't know about any benefits of shadowing vs repeating.)
It terms of pronunciation, I think repeating is more effective after learning hiragana and/or when students are told to focus on particular sounds and get feedback.
Knowing kana (and kanji) affects how we process the sound as units apparently (segmenting), gives us a finite inventory of sounds, and gives self-studiers a way identify/describe the sounds. You can improve pronunciation using nonsense kana strings. It's a technique to avoid interference from known words that have been learned incorrectly and to focus only on sound. That might be what pudding cat had in mind.
Repeating with hiragana text also has benefits for learning hiragana, reading and pronunciation.
Learners are better able to avoid/fix common pronunciation problems (like short おう and っ) if they are told specifically to listen for them and work on them. It's less likely someone repeating or shadowing incomprehensible input will catch and replicate those sounds correctly without some direction. (Some people, like musicians, are better at catching these subtleties than others.) One effective technique is to exaggerate the length of those sounds (rather than trying to mimic exactly). Similarly, one technique to even out pitch and rhythm is to read or repeat a sentence in an exaggeratedly uneven rhythm or pitch.
Some students have trouble self correcting and improve more with feedback (whether live or hearing a recording of the own voice.)
Advantages of known words included learning word pitch (better to hear words in sentences than isolated words), learning how certain sounds change in some words (eg realizing des is actually desu) and practising sound to meaning. (2 birds one stone.)
I think the connections between music ear training and language pronunciation /prosody training are really interesting. Musicians benefit from hearing music, but benefit more from including ear training (pitch, rhythm) in their practice.
edit: pudding cat and nest0r covered some this while I was typing. Fixed pudding cat's name :-)
who really does the shadowing method. - AlexandreC - 2011-08-29
Generally, It's better to shadow things you understand or else you won't be learning anything. Every word has its own pitch pattern and its own sounds, and every sentence has it's own intonation, etc., and if you have no idea what are listening to, it's extremely difficult to notice any pattern and gain any knowledge from it. Whatever you learn should be things you can then reuse. Without meaningful repetition soon after, you will forget everything anyway.
However, there might be some situations where a person's accent is so bad that in order to bypass previous habits and improve, they should start mimicking sounds blindly so as to set new habits and get a new feel for the language. I really doubt a person with such important issues would be able to correct their problems on their own anyway.
who really does the shadowing method. - pudding cat - 2011-08-29
Thora Wrote:That might be what puddingfoot had in mind.I see you've been speaking to other members of the pudding family
I am a pudding-shaped cat though, whilst puddingfoot is humanoid with feet made of pudding.Back on topic, only "incomprehensible" shadowing I've done is with songs when I had very little/no knowledge of Japanese. After listening to songs so many times (Card Captor Sakura! You were the best!) it was impossible not to sing along although I had practically no idea what I was actually singing.
I don't know how comparable that is to shadowing speaking though.
who really does the shadowing method. - Thora - 2011-08-29
haha sorry about that, pudding cat. There was a fancy store here called Puddifoot...
(I also keep typing Silverstar instead of Silverspoon b/c there a ski resort here with that name.)
Songs can be great for language learning (and speech impediments too if we can believe The King's Speech.) :-) The rhythm and melody help. Think of children's nursery rhymes.
I have a friend who sings opera in languages she really doesn't speak. Memorizing the text on its own would be a much more difficult task.
The potential problem with some songs is beginners trying to decode lyrics which are too poetic (or otherwise irregular) to be very useful.
who really does the shadowing method. - Nuriko - 2011-08-29
Here's what my improvement was like after shadowing 20 minutes worth of audio, which took hours upon hours to reach 満足のいく results:
- This is the main one: When reading Japanese written material aloud, I rarely stumble over words anymore. Compared to before, most of what I read comes out smoothly, overall. Before shadowing, I couldn't read new material without getting tongue-tied at least once in a sentence.
- Therefore... reading-aloud speed has dramatically increased (since, when shadowing, you must learn to keep up with the speaker/reader).
- I've increased my understanding of "which syllable has the mora (accent) placed on it" through shadowing. To master the pitch accent, you generally have to learn on a word-by-word basis (if you pronounce it with a "gut feeling," you can often get it wrong). But when you're shadowing while focusing on the pitch accent like you probably should be doing, you're engraving the pitch account for various words all in one fell swoop (perhaps without even realizing it, at times). So, this makes you more likely to read the word correctly when seeing it in an article or using it in conversation.
- Every time I finished a shadowing session, I noticed being more alert to the other audio I listened to (via iPod, on the news, etc).
- I have confidence with pronouncing ら行 (ra, ri, ru, re, ro) like I never had before. Via shadowing, my mouth had no option but to get used to the movements required for these sounds.
Aside from those possible advantages, you're exposing yourself to vocabulary and grammar patterns in a very beneficial form. When I shadowed, I tried hard to shadow to perfection, so after saying the same things over and over, the stories/readings were engraved in my brain, whether the brain liked it or not (I'd say it liked it, though
). So, I have memorized some of them and can and recite 「肉屋オウム」 along with the 朗読家 whenever the story gets played on my ipod - an unexpected plus, but quite a good one.edit: Jordan, I recommend shadowing some of the essays/stories in these when you're ready to move onto more intermediate shadowing:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=japanese+parallel&x=0&y=0#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Read+Real+Japanese&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3ARead+Real+Japanese
http://www.amazon.com/Read-Real-Japanese-Essays-Contemporary/dp/4770030576/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1314671486&sr=8-3
who really does the shadowing method. - Nuriko - 2011-08-29
pudding cat Wrote:(Card Captor Sakura! You were the best!)Haha XD The opening to that was one of the first things I ever learned in Japanese...
who really does the shadowing method. - TheVinster - 2011-08-29
@Nuriko
Can you explain how you did it, and give me some beginner material? I know you posted 2 links, but it says that's for intermediate shadowing.
who really does the shadowing method. - Nuriko - 2011-08-29
Good questions, I'll be happy to answer
The more I shadowed, the more I automatically found myself following a very specific order of steps after trying some things and seeing what worked. It may seem a little strange (and maybe a little too specific), but I'll list it below.1) Silently read (not aloud) the material and get at least a basic idea of the content. You may not need to look up words you don't know when reading - let the shadowing process untie the knots for you.
2) Listen to the full content - it's your choice whether you want to refer to the text while listening or not. I listened 5-10 times without the text.
3) Shadow in sections (a sentence/paragraph/page at a time)
A. Listen to the audio of the section while "mouthing" along with the reader
B. Without even listening to the material... read the section aloud once, or a few times (this will get you more comfortable with mouthing and shadowing) (A and B are interchangeable)
repeat A and/or B until you feel ready to read aloud
C. Read aloud along with the reader
repeat A (mouthing) a few times
repeat C. Go back and forth between shadowing/mouthing
Soon you will ween yourself away from "mouthing," and then you can just shadow.
I didn't ever shadow without looking at the material, just to let you know, but I think it's worth doing.
Before using more intermediate material, I shadowed individual sentences from iKnow core6000. Also, I didn't use this, but this is supposed to be a good shadowing resource for beginners: http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/Shadowing-Lets-Speak-Japanese-Beginner-to-Intermediate-Level-p-16500.html
who really does the shadowing method. - Omoishinji - 2011-08-31
Shadowing is one of many tools that is beneficial in any stage of language acquisition for learners. This includes a child learning their first language. In the situation mentioned here it is being used to improve a language learns speaking and listening skills. These two skills range from the subtlety between two words to engaging complex discussions.
Every spoken language have various nuances that have to be mastered. Without the ability to engage in authentic speech, mastering some of these distinctions is very difficult. It is copying authentic speech that shadowing is suppose to simulate.
The Japanese language has various nuances that should be acknowledged, but only a few will be mentioned. They are the differences between long and short vowels, long and short constants, and the changes in the pronunciations of constants. Also, the fact that seemly similar words can have different intonations. Making a mistake in one of these would results in the changes in the word, or utterance of a meaningless word.
A language learner may know the Japanese word for rain, and not know any similar words. It is possible that they may inadvertently say the word for incorrectly. A native level speaker would recognize that they heard 'candy' instead of 'rain', and indicate this by correcting the student,. Without access to a native level speaker the student may not know this. With several words similar in pronunciation the language learner could in error say something hilarious, and this has happened to me.
My position is that shadowing unknown words can be advantageous, but is not essential. There are many words have to be mastered. When news words are encountered they should be searched for in a dictionary when convenient. The important aspects of shadowing is learning how to recognize and reproduce words correctly in Japanese. Avoiding unknown words can be disadvantageous and isn't the best way to improve language skills. It is agreed that doing too much difficult material can make learning something frustrating.
It is up to the student whether or not a new Kanji should be added to an unknown word. This doesn't mean searching for obscure words, but to add words that are encounter during ones studying. One example for me is encountering 選択（せんたく） during studying. Both Kanji's 訓読み is えらぶ and have the exact same intonation, but only was 選ぶ known. It must be warned that some words have several pronunciations; with 作為（さくい）being one.
I have been able to correct for incorrect pronunciation, rhythm, and intonation. However, the best has been being able to remember words more easily. The material I have used, include books dedicated for Japanese learning, Shadowing, Kanji studying, Sentence Memorization, and Electronic Dictionary. However, the best part is have my listening gradually improve.
Maybe my perception comes from a willingness to learn unknown words. Then using Japanese and Japanese to English dictionaries to verify the meaning and usage of the words. The reasons are beyond the scope of this post. Language learners should have the inquisitiveness enough to embrace some new words when encountered. Language acquisition be done through a holistic approach. It is a voyage not several short stroll.