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Eletronic Dictionaries - suffah - 2007-09-26
Can anyone throw me some recs? I finally decided to grab one after playing with a bunch of them at Kinokuniya. I am leaning towards the Canon Wordtank V90. I like the fact that it does Chinese.
Any other recs?
Eletronic Dictionaries - thegeezer3 - 2007-09-26
I know now that a lot of these electronic dictionaries have a pad to draw your kanji on with a stylus but even with that id still go for a pocket pc.
PPCs are expandable and theres a ton of dictionaries available. You can buy the dictionary the sanseido online version uses (i think that one is eijiro), the green goddess or some of the uber mono lingual dictionaries akin to the mamoth Cambridge English dictionaries you often find on a teachers bookshelf.
Simply buy the dictionaries you want from amazon.co.jp of from the store itself. Most if not all japanese dictionaries are available in a format called EPWING. To view these dictionaries you simply need an EPWING viewer software. There are quite a few available for free. You can have all your dictionaries i.e. chinese, japanese etc all together in the viewer. You can search for a word in any dictionary and jump from one dictionary to the other. Really useful. It might be different now but when i bought mine i had to buy a japanese ppc as the western ones didnt have the text recognition for japanese. But i recently heard you could install some soft to add this functionality.
heres a link to a guy who talks about this a lot. He sells packages but to tell you the truth you could do it all yourself though if youre having a hard time picking up a japanese ppc then he could be doing you a favour.
http://www.japaneselanguagetools.com/index.html
Eletronic Dictionaries - chamcham - 2007-09-26
Canon also has the wordtank v300, which is newer than the v90.
The standout feature of the v300 is that it can be USB-powered.
So you won't have to use batteries if you connect the dictionary to your
computer!
Complete review is here:
http://www.quinlanfaris.com/?p=71
Eletronic Dictionaries - suffah - 2007-09-26
Hmm, never even considered a ppc, thanks for the advice/link geezer. I really like the display on those.
chamcham, very cool. Although I think if I had access to a computer I might as well use a computer dic?
Anyone else own any of these? or other models?
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-26
Casio is considered the leader in Japan for electronic dictionaries. When I bought my last one I toyed around with all the different makes and came to conclusion that their reputation is deserved. Sharps have many useless features such as color wanseg tv etc, but the actually dictionary functions are lacking and the search functions are VERY SLOW. Canon isn't very useful except for people learning English, and beginners at Japanese. I found the interface pretty irritating as well. Seikos are nice (my previous unit was a Seiko) but they are lacking many features available on the other brands (such as handwriting recognition). Seiko DO have the best keyboards though (short stroke laptop style keys) on their medium and high end models. They also make very nice compact style ones. I carried a seiko pocket size model every day (in my actual pockets) for about two years.
If you are serious about learning Japanese, there is only one model you should even consider, the Casio XD-GW6900. You probably won't find it on the normal import sites however, since it's a pretty advanced unit. You can probably buy it off Amazon.jp though, or locally if you're in Japan. That model is the Japanese focused model. The other models are focused towards doctors, people learning english/chinese/french/etc, or middle/highschool students (have lots of test prep materials). The 6900 is loaded with almost every Japanese dictionary Casio offers, but it is lacking in English dictionaries. As such, you should be comfortable reading definitions in Japanese. If you really need better English dictionaries than the ones included, you can buy and install them later. The price is on about the same level as high end dictionaries from other brands. I bought the previous Japanese-centric model (GW-6800) in July or so for about 3万円, from an MSRP of I believe ６万円. I also got a TON of Yodobashi points on it due to a special, and some negotiating with the sales guy.
I VERY strongly recommend against buying a PPC to use as a dictionary. The only benefit to using a PPC is that you can use an SRS on it. EDICT was never meant to replace a real dictionary. Geezer said that you can buy more dictionaries to put on it, but you would be buying one at a time (they aren't very cheap), and you'd still have way less functionality than a real denshi jisho (the 6900 has ~100 dictionaries on it and would end up costing less than a ppc with a small handful of dicts)
-edit-
Here is a link to the model I recommend for people serious about learning Japanese.
[url=http://casio.jp/exword/products/XD-GW6900/][/url]
Eletronic Dictionaries - dilandau23 - 2007-09-26
I still stand by the 129.00 (in the US) Nintendo DS and the 漢字そのまま DS楽引辞典. It has worked great for me and I still haven't outgrown it studying for 2級JLPT.
See it in action here.
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-26
dilandau23 Wrote:I still stand by the 129.00 (in the US) Nintendo DS and the 漢字そのまま DS楽引辞典. It has worked great for me and I still haven't outgrown it studying for 2級JLPT.The dict. for DS is really what I'd consider the bare minimum for a portable dictionary. It even has some stuff that actual low end denshi jisho are generally lacking like pen input and color, although lacking in other areas such as number of contents. Inputting kana with a pen is also annoying, especially with the poor recognition of similar characters. However, it is infinitely better than using a ppc (since I'm betting that the majority are just using EDICT), but I'd really recommend a high end denshi jisho if you are serious about Japanese and plan on learning beyond JLPT.
If money really is an issue, then by all means go for the DS option, you could even play games and Japanese training software on it (which is what I use mine for).
Eletronic Dictionaries - dilandau23 - 2007-09-26
Jarvik7 Wrote:...although lacking in other areas such as number of contents. Inputting kana with a pen is also annoying, especially with the poor recognition of similar characters... but I'd really recommend a high end denshi jisho if you are serious about Japanese and plan on learning beyond JLPT.I have used my DS and that dictionary for almost a year now and I have never once looked up a word that was not included. Personally, I think the high end electronic dictionaries just use numbers as an ad gimmick. I agree that kana handwriting is a bit of a pain but the recognition is fairly accurate in my experience, not to mention there is a soft keyboard for romaji and kana. As for learning beyond JLPT, I can't say much there except that, at this time, I think the dictionary will carry me well into that territory as well. The bottom line is, why spend over 3man on an electronic dictionary unless you know you need it? As you said the DS also comes with "perks", something even the highest end electronic dictionaries tend to lack. This is all just my opinion though.
Eletronic Dictionaries - JimmySeal - 2007-09-26
Quote:I'd really recommend a high end denshi jisho if you are serious about Japanese and plan on learning beyond JLPT.A language learner should outgrow their dictionary, not remain dependent on it. Certainly by the time one finishes JLPT, they should be picking up words mostly from context, so the matter of whether a dictionary contains a lot of obscure vocabulary is largely irrelevant. If there's a word that you absolutely must look up, write it down and look it up on the web when you're at a computer.
Quote:If you are serious about learning Japanese, there is only one model you should even consider, the Casio XD-GW6900.I say if you're serious about learning Japanese, you probably shouldn't get an electronic dictionary at all, but I know a lot of people don't share my opinion on that.
And I don't think you can order electronics from amazon.co.jp if you live outside of Japan.
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-26
JimmySeal Wrote:A language learner should outgrow their dictionary, not remain dependent on it. Certainly by the time one finishes JLPT, they should be picking up words mostly from context, so the matter of whether a dictionary contains a lot of obscure vocabulary is largely irrelevant. If there's a word that you absolutely must look up, write it down and look it up on the web when you're at a computer.I would say that depends on your language goals. If mere comprehension of general text is what you're aiming for then sure. Being able to write well in Japanese, read old, classical, obscure texts, etc etc are all things in which context will not be sufficient. All translators have large stacks of many different dictionaries to which they refer even when translating the simplest text.
Quote:If you are serious about learning Japanese, there is only one model you should even consider, the Casio XD-GW6900.I say if you're serious about learning Japanese, you probably shouldn't get an electronic dictionary at all, but I know a lot of people don't share my opinion on that.
It depends on what your definition of "serious" is. My definition is not "able to read manga"/"play a videogame". Being able to use context to figure out some words, and just write down the rest for later is a luxury of learning Japanese for enjoyment.
Eletronic Dictionaries - JimmySeal - 2007-09-26
Comprehension begets proficiency. Learning to use a word naturally comes from encountering it in different situations, not from knowing its English equivalent or some convoluted 国語 definition.
Do Japanese people learn their own language by toting around dictionaries wherever they go? Is that how you learned your own native language? If not, then your second paragraph is clearly not true because these people are obviously doing more than just reading manga and playing video games.
And when a translator uses a dictionary, they are not using it to "learn Japanese" but because sometimes they need the answer right away in order to do their job, or sometimes they want to see how other people translate the word to get ideas for how they can translate it. Do not confuse that with learning.
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-26
JimmySeal Wrote:Comprehension begets proficiency. Learning to use a word naturally comes from encountering it in different situations, not from knowing its English equivalent or some convoluted 国語 definition.Learning a second language cannot be compared to learning your native language. There are many differences because of desired speed of learning, brain changes due to age, etc etc. While real life experience is of course the best way to learn, chances are you won't encounter much of what you want to learn in real life conversations within an acceptable timeframe. There is also the case of someone taking actual Japanese courses who need to learn word xyz by Friday.
Do Japanese people learn their own language by toting around dictionaries wherever they go? Is that how you learned your own native language? If not, then your second paragraph is clearly not true because these people are obviously doing more than just reading manga and playing video games.
And when a translator uses a dictionary, they are not using it to "learn Japanese" but because sometimes they need the answer right away in order to do their job, or sometimes they want to see how other people translate the word to get ideas for how they can translate it. Do not confuse that with learning.
This is a site based upon a heavily structured scheduled way to learn kanji. It is clearly an effective method. You can also learn vocabulary or grammar or anything else in a similar structured way. "Today I will learn these words relating to this topic". Of course you're going to want to start using those words in conversation etc to get a better feel for them, but just waiting for a word to pop up and then maybe figure it out from context is altogether too passive for my taste. Immersion style learning is so much more effective when backed with actual book learning.
Eletronic Dictionaries - JimmySeal - 2007-09-26
Jarvik7 Wrote:Learning a second language cannot be compared to learning your native language.I think it can.
Quote:There are many differences because of desired speed of learning, brain changes due to age, etc etc.I believe learning through context is at least as fast and more efficient than using a dictionary or textbook. In the intermediate stages, some things will develop at different speeds as compared to the other method, but the end result is better.
The only significant "brain change" w.r.t. language learning is that an adult knows a language and thinks that it will enable them to learn another one. The natural ability to learn languages never goes away.
Quote:There is also the case of someone taking actual Japanese courses who need to learn word xyz by Friday.One of the many reasons why I think classes are artificial and deleterious.
Quote:This is a site based upon a heavily structured scheduled way to learn kanji. It is clearly an effective method.The RTK kanji are a finite collection of characters that are composed of dozens of strokes and are almost too complex to keep straight through mere observation.
Words, on the other hand, comprise small sets of sounds in a linear fashion and lend themselves much more to learning intuitively.
Quote:just waiting for a word to pop up and then maybe figure it out from context is altogether too passive for my taste.Any children's novel contains the "steak and potatoes" necessary for an understanding of the language. For more specific learning, reading a book on the subject you want to talk about is far more effective for learning the vocabulary and will expand your vocabulary well beyond that small set of words.
Again, a dictionary can be somewhat helpful for finding specific words that you want to use, but not to the extent that you need to carry one wherever you go, and not to the extent where you need one with 600,000 words.
Serious learners don't need electronic dictionaries. People learn other languages all the time without them.
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-27
You never commented on my last sentence, which is probably the most important one in my previous post. " Immersion style learning is so much more effective when backed with actual book learning."
From what you are saying you seem to believe that using a dictionary is a direct impediment to learning. Sure, using one as a crutch will hurt your progress, as will over-dependence on any other tool. Overuse manga as a learning tool and you will end up speaking quite strangely. If you use a dictionary to simply look up a word you encounter and pull a one word English definition out of it (or even worse, look it up when encountered, never really learn it, and then end up looking it up again and again whenever it's encountered), then yes it's hurting your learning. If you on the other hand read the entire entry and several linked entries and truly own the word, then you have a much deeper understanding than you could get from context alone. Keep in mind that any decent dictionary provides context of their own in the form of numerous sample sentences which demonstrate various ways the word can be used, often pulled from actual texts so that they are not contrived examples.
While you are free to believe what you want about how the ability to learn languages changes with age, what you said goes against the current consensus in linguistic scientific understanding. Unless you are a published phd, I'd go with them instead of you. There are of course preconceptions you spoke of that can come with age, but those are a separate hurdle.
To use your previous comparison with how native Japanese learn kanji, it is mostly through exposure and actual use, not a rigidly structured study system. When are we to choose between native style and a structured approach? As my final sentence in my previous post stated, a mix of both is the best solution for a second language learner.
Classes can be good or bad, it depends on the curriculum, the teacher, and the students in my class. I have posted previously in other threads about how I had studied for two years in a rather poor Japanese system, and then studied for one year in an excellent one. The classes I had that were excellent had a combination of strutured and immersion style learning. You can of course do the same thing on your own, but having a class gives you deadlines which can be useful as a goal. It is the same concept as studying for JLPT/Kanken. They can also provide the conversational immersion which some people have trouble setting up themselves.
This discussion has become a tangent. The creator wanted advice on which dictionary to get and I provided some information and a link to one filled with Japanese contents instead of TOEIC references and numerous E->E, eikaiwa, etc contents which are not terribly useful to a learner of Japanese. Prices do not differ by much in store, so in my opinion it is best to get one you will never outgrow, even if you start studying classical Japanese, hentaikanbun, poetry (context won't help you with the pillow words), or anything else.
Eletronic Dictionaries - JimmySeal - 2007-09-27
I didn't respond to the last sentence because I didn't think there was much to say about it. I simply disagree with it. I believe that book learning leads people to think too much about the language while they're trying to use and comprehend it, rather than just accept it for how it is. This slows down the cognitive processes and results in people who reach old age without ever being able to speak the language fluidly. A combined approach does help to offset this a bit, but I think it would still be best to avoid book learning entirely (that is, grammar explanation and vocab lists, not actual books in the language).
Quote:To use your previous comparison with how native Japanese learn kanji, it is mostly through exposure and actual use, not a rigidly structured study system. When are we to choose between native style and a structured approach? As my final sentence in my previous post stated, a mix of both is the best solution for a second language learner.Well, let's look at how the Japanese wind up using kanji. Most Japanese adults can read about 2200 kanji without trouble, but can't write more than 1200, despite being exposed to them their whole lives. Something about their approach isn't working. On the other hand, they have little trouble using or comprehending spoken words. Clearly there is a difference between learning vocabulary and grammar, and learning kanji, and I touched on that a bit in my previous post.
One more reason for why Japanese can learn kanji pretty well without an approach like Heisig is that they already have the meanings and readings tied together before they start learning kanji, and only need to connect these to the characters' forms, foreigners are faced with connecting all three parts of the kanji puzzle. Indeed, I think that an illiterate person who spoke Japanese fluently and had no interest in writing it but wanted to learn to read would get little value from the Heisig approach.
Quote:While you are free to believe what you want about how the ability to learn languages changes with age, what you said goes against the current consensus in linguistic scientific understanding. Unless you are a published phd, I'd go with them instead of you. There are of course preconceptions you spoke of that can come with age, but those are a separate hurdle.Language acquisition is categorically difficult (some say impossible) to measure, which makes any findings of that sort suspect. On top of that is the large factor of self-fulfilling prophecies. If a person grows up being told that babies have a "special" ability to learn languages that they lose past the age of two, then naturally they will have a mental block when someone tells them to pick up something intuitively. That is, unless someone convinces them otherwise. In fact, I was that way for a long time until I realized that it wasn't true. I would think that this factor is rarely taken into account in such studies.
My friend told me a while ago that if you haven't learned to pronounce a rolled R by the time you reach puberty, you never will. Yet I learned to do so at the ripe old age of 22. This doesn't prove anything about my main point, but it does show that scientific findings are not always to be trusted about what an adult can and can't do.
Eletronic Dictionaries - wrightak - 2007-09-27
JimmySeal Wrote:Do Japanese people learn their own language by toting around dictionaries wherever they go? Is that how you learned your own native language?I use English dictionaries a lot. Surely the ideal situation is to use a combination of factors including context, dictionaries and anything else that can help. I agree that it's easy to overuse your dictionary.
Eletronic Dictionaries - forestsprite - 2007-09-27
Uh, bypassing all of this tangent stuff to get back to the OP's original request; the dictionary I have is a Casio EX-word XD-SW6400. I picked it up on sale at Yodabashi about six months ago and haven't looked back. I was originally considering a Canon seeing as how they're often the most recommended on boards like these, but the Casio seemed to have just as many features and more dictionaries, plus the ability to draw kanji and kana for a bit cheaper price. The dictionaries are adequate with decent example sentences that really are useful, though I occasionally can't find words. I probably would have had to buy an electronic dictionary aimed at doctors at a price of around $800 for that to happen though, as I'm studying physiology at the university level and most are advanced terms and definitions. And lot of the time words I can't find a translation for do show up in the J-J dictionary that is included.
I also liked the way it looked better than its competitors, but that's really a personal choice. The other two models I was considering were one of the Sharp Papyrus line and the mentioned Canon Wordtank V90, in that order. I probably would have been happy with any one of them. Hope you get a good deal!
Eletronic Dictionaries - suffah - 2007-09-27
Thanks all for the suggestions.
I read for 1-2 hours every night without a dictionary. When I come across an unknown word, I will try to figure it out via context or just skip it. I'm too lazy to write it down and I don't want to let looking up words get in the way of my leisure reading. However, I do notice a lot of words repeatedly and I feel these words should be looked up and reinforced with some example sentences.
I guess I want to take a more scholarly approach but my method has worked for me fine so far. Maybe I don't need one of these after all.
Eletronic Dictionaries - dingomick - 2007-09-27
I bought a V90 a year or so ago and mostly regret it. The model itself is great, but:
1. I'm taking 3級 this year. This dictionary, and any other even half the price and above, is WAY beyond anything I'll need, even if I study hardcore for the next couple years. (I should have got a DS so I could game too!)
2. The main reason I bought the particular model was for the kanji function, but that is seriously lacking in that the kanji compound list is brief making you look up each individual kanji, get the reading, then try to type the reading in. Defeats the purpose of kanji lookup! Also, the kanji writing times out WAY to quickly. I write fast and well, but all dictionaries are designed for the Japanese fluent, and this time out is just one reflection of that (the Casios and Sharps have dedicated kanji pads that don't time out).
3. The lack of a backlight sucks. The screen is impossible to read in half light or less.
If I were buying again, I'd buy a much cheaper model regardless of how many entries it boasts (no one but 1級 or higher would ever need them anyway). Better kanji input, a backlight, and something that fits in my pocket are the first features I would consider.
An electronic dictionary is an excellent tool to have, but as others have deabted in this thread, definitely not necessary.
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-27
dingomick: Canon is well known for having poor search functions; it is probably the most common complaint. I was going to get one as my first denshi jisho, as many people do, before I went to Japan. Luckily I got a Seiko instead after reading some reviews. I don't know why so many people buy Canons, maybe it is the availability of an English manual that spurs importers to stock them more than other brands.
Eletronic Dictionaries - JimmySeal - 2007-09-27
suffah Wrote:When I come across an unknown word, I will try to figure it out via context or just skip it. I'm too lazy to write it down and I don't want to let looking up words get in the way of my leisure reading. However, I do notice a lot of words repeatedly and I feel these words should be looked up and reinforced with some example sentences.I mentioned writing down words and looking them up for people who absolutely can't break the dictionary habit, but for me personally, I never look up the meanings of words. I do, on the other hand, write down unknown kanji words so I can look up their readings later.
When you come across a word again and again, just try to think about a few possibilities for what it might mean. Successive encounters with the word will help you narrow it down until you have a pretty good idea of what it means.
Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't know why so many people buy Canons, maybe it is the availability of an English manual that spurs importers to stock them more than other brands.It could be the catchy name, "Wordtank" that nearly became a generic word for e-dictionaries, though that seems to be changing now. It could also be because Canon was the first company to make big-screen full-featured dictionaries and remained that way for a few years. I agree that they're not very good. The loading time on the G50 was ridiculous.
dingomick Wrote:the kanji compound list is brief making you look up each individual kanji, get the reading, then try to type the reading in.This is a problem with every dictionary model I've seen. The alternative is that some models provide a list of every compound containing that character, leaving you to scan through pages and pages to find the right one. Naturally this makes it easy to skip over the one you're looking for and keep going.
I'm sure they're out there, but I've yet to see an e-dicitonary that lets you enter a string of kanji and then search that way.
On the other hand, the DS dictionary, or a PPC equipped with JWPce both let you search this way.
Eletronic Dictionaries - dingomick - 2007-09-27
If only I could take Wakan with me!!
For anyone 3級 or below, Wakan (based on EDict, KanjiDict, etc) is the best dictionary possible. It's HUGE strength is that it accepts almost any verb/adjective conjugation (i.e. type in 食べた and it will tell you it's "to eat", italicized to let you know it's not the plain form). Another enormous strength is that you can search for anything. If it's anywhere in the database, it will return it: kanji compounds, English words, phrases, names, incomplete kana or kanji (A+, +A, +A+). This is a breeze because it's also directly connected to the clipboard. The character search is also amazingly detailed yet dead simple to use, as are the vocab examples. And the whole program can be greatly customized. (And there are other features such as a translator, flashcard creator, etc)
Wakan's huge weakness is that it lacks Japanese definitions and depth. But as I said, it's the only dictionary 3級 or below needs, and is a useful tool for any native English speaker studying Japanese because it's made for the native English speaker.
I know the market isn't compelling enough for the manufacturers to do it, but if one company made the small changes to produce a dictionary aimed solely at English speakers studying Japanese, it would be the number one seller for the whole segment.
Eletronic Dictionaries - Jarvik7 - 2007-09-27
Recognizing conjugated verbs isn't much of a useful feature unless you are JUST starting Japanese. You should really know how to conjugate verbs after a couple months. And a translator? Oh god no.
Is a good example of over-use of dictionaries that would make Jimmyseal angry. As you say, EDICT lacks depth, so you don't even learn much of anything about the word you lookup except a couple one word definitions that could easily be misleading.
Eletronic Dictionaries - dingomick - 2007-09-28
I still find, with more frequency than I'd like, conjugated verbs in hiragana whose correct root or meaning I do not know. Wakan is a quick and simple tool to find them.
I listed translator as an minor feature. Used with the clipboard feature, it makes parsing large chunks of text easy, especially those with a high percentage of unknown vocabulary. I of course don't take it as a "translation".
Again, as I noted several times before, I believe Wakan is the best tool for those 3級 and below who rarely need anything more than directly translatable vocabulary. Japanese definitions at that point are still a bit beyond useful application. And Wakan provides example sentences, though not as many as Japanese dictionary.
Eletronic Dictionaries - mbagsh55 - 2007-09-28
Jarvik7 Wrote:dingomick: Canon is well known for having poor search functions; it is probably the most common complaint. I was going to get one as my first denshi jisho, as many people do, before I went to Japan. Luckily I got a Seiko instead after reading some reviews. I don't know why so many people buy Canons, maybe it is the availability of an English manual that spurs importers to stock them more than other brands.I have a Canon Wordtank IDX-9500 from over 10 years ago, and my wife (Japanese) has a (now broken) Seiko. My experience from using both is that the Canon has excellent search and jump functions and that the Seiko (cheaper than the wordtank I will agree) was slower and lacked more detailed explanations often, but not always available on the Wordtank.
My wordtank is near indestructable and my wife still uses it on occassion since her Seiko broke relatively quickly. Canon was the market-leader in the 1990's because they were the best at that time, although I have no experience with the newer machines.
I personally now use my Zaurus built-in dictionary, which has both J-J and J<->E functions and although not as fast as a dedicated electronic dictionary is good enough for my needs.