+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: White People Can't Read Japanese. (/thread-8238.html)
White People Can't Read Japanese. - ta12121 - 2011-08-15
I remember talking to my jp friend about how i'm learning 人名用漢字 and he was like you don't even need to know that. A few months later I tell him I can now read over 2000+ 常用漢字 and a lot of 人名用漢字 (ultimate goal is to be able to read 90% of them or higher). And he was like "Now you more kanji then me". Although for me it's a different story, since I'm nowhere near related to Asian or Caucasian. So it adds to the surprise, but overall you kinda get used to it. The average person thinks Asian languages are beyond comprehension for non-native Asians.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - Shakunatz - 2011-08-15
Most of the time I ask a reading advice to a Japanese person that doesn't know me too much, the same thing happens again and again.
I get praised for a ridicule amount of time and then he/she is likely to say: "I wouldn'b be able to read 告白 in English, you're amazing. YOU'RE A GENIUS!!".
Being said that, I know
Quote:they're just being polite. It's so normal for Japanese to exaggerate their compliments.But by stressing their lack of English skills or by enfatising the fact that I'm more skillful than them, they make me feel tired of explaining that eveybody can learn every language: it's pointless, lots of people don't believe it.
They make me feel as they think I'm dumb but I somehow managed to learn reading Japanese books.
I know they don't think that, it's somethig that I can't help but feel.
I agree totally with GreenAirth: most of the time I just say "いいえ、まだまだです。これからですよ～！" but sometimes you can't avoid feeling sick. I was trying the hangout feature on g+ with some Japanese guys. We were 5 initally, then we became 10. I won't videochat again with a Japanese who doesn't know me in the next 6 months. Why?
Because I experienced that "OMG YOU'RE A FREAKING GENIUS YOU CAN READ 鬱病 AND YOU CAN TALK ABOUT POLITICS. I CAN'T! I'M NOT AS GOOD AS YOU. I CAN'T DO THAT IN ENGLISH!" situation 6 times in 30 minutes. Give me a break XD
To say "I'm rich and I've been studying Japanese in a Japanese language school in Shibuya since 1984. I'm not special, I've just spent half of my life in a language school" might work
White People Can't Read Japanese. - JimmySeal - 2011-08-15
On a few occasions, people have seen me reading an ordinary Japanese novel and asked me, "Can you even read katakana?" To which I can only respond,
![[Image: OpoQQ.jpg?1302279173]](http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/square/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg?1302279173){kind=icon}
White People Can't Read Japanese. - GreenAirth - 2011-08-15
JimmySeal Wrote:http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/square/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg?1302279173That face says it all. I'm going away to practise it now.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-15
99.99% of all white people can't read Japanese. Enjoy being thought of as a genius. What is the downside?
White People Can't Read Japanese. - fakewookie - 2011-08-15
bodhisamaya Wrote:99.99% of all white people can't read Japanese. Enjoy being thought of as a genius. What is the downside?Sums up my thoughts on this.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - wccrawford - 2011-08-15
bodhisamaya Wrote:99.99% of all white people can't read Japanese. Enjoy being thought of as a genius. What is the downside?Heck, most white people think I'm a genius simply for being able to read Japanese. lol
White People Can't Read Japanese. - nest0r - 2011-08-15
Here's some more threads on the topic. I'm pretty sure there's others I missed.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7311
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5807
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=4484
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3931
White People Can't Read Japanese. - wccrawford - 2011-08-15
Hey! Hey! Don't spoil our pity party!
White People Can't Read Japanese. - perrin4869 - 2011-08-15
Yeah, blame white people like me who can't speak proper Japanese yet, after a year and a half in Japan. In my defense though, I was naive enough to believe I would learn it in one year with an intensive course here... By the time I realized my mistake, it was too late, now I'm the idiot who can't speak Japanese. It feels kinda bad, but I know I'll get good... Eventually.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - wccrawford - 2011-08-15
perrin4869 Wrote:Yeah, blame white people like me who can't speak proper Japanese yet, after a year and a half in Japan. In my defense though, I was naive enough to believe I would learn it in one year with an intensive course here... By the time I realized my mistake, it was too late, now I'm the idiot who can't speak Japanese. It feels kinda bad, but I know I'll get good... Eventually.Despite what so many people say, learning another language is -not- easy and fast. It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time. They like to say things like 'you should learn it like a baby does', but I've seen how well a baby speaks after 4 years and I'm not impressed.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - perrin4869 - 2011-08-15
wccrawford Wrote:Despite what so many people say, learning another language is -not- easy and fast. It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time. They like to say things like 'you should learn it like a baby does', but I've seen how well a baby speaks after 4 years and I'm not impressed.Yeah, that's what I realized after a few months here... Now it's too late, I'm stuck in Osaka University with a subpar level of Japanese. The truth is, back in my country I was so biased for lessons, and so looking forward to learning Japanese in class... But yeah, again, naivety. Blame society for lying to me.
I am working on my Japanese though, with a high dosage of raw anime and some manga and hopefully I can get more into actual novels...
Back on topic though, I think that how much people underestimate your ability of Japanese depends on the kind of people you hang out with. I am in the 理学部 of Osaka University, and I don't get nearly as many of the annoying "Wow, you can read Hiragana!", "「どこから来ました？」「イスラエル」「凄い!日本語上手だ！」 statements as my roommate in the 外国語学部. Or maybe my personality has to do with it. Or maybe because I suck so much, they don't tell me I'm good.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - GreenAirth - 2011-08-15
bodhisamaya Wrote:99.99% of all white people can't read Japanese. Enjoy being thought of as a genius. What is the downside?I know you're right, but you're not thought of as a genius. You're a party piece. It gets tedious. Just occasionally. I suppose it's no different to when I was a child and could hang a spoon off my nose.
People all over the world have preconceptions and attach labels to everyone they meet. It's all too easy to make assumptions about what others can do and what they think. It's hard to see everyone as an individual.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - kainzero - 2011-08-15
since i'm not white
i don't get all the fun you guys are having =(
everyone's surprised when I am unable to speak Japanese.
my looks could pass for most Asians. they always speak to me in their native language when i go to their respective ethnic supermarkets. -_-;
White People Can't Read Japanese. - Bokusenou - 2011-08-15
LOL This whole thread reminds me of this blog post.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - dizmox - 2011-08-15
I'd been watching variety TV for a few days with my girlfriend and she was amazed that I picked up the names of the タレント. >_>
Also she was incredibly impressed when I went all the way down to the shops in Kyoto on my own on the metro.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-15
bodhisamaya Wrote:99.99% of all white people can't read Japanese. Enjoy being thought of as a genius. What is the downside?The problem is that most of the time they're not really taking you seriously; it's more in the vein of "the monkey can clap his hands!"
When I'm reading a novel in Japanese and someone asks whether I can read katakana (or expresses surprise that I can read hiragana), they're not considering me a genius. They're being stupidly patronizing. I know it's cultural to a certain extent and that it sometimes covers for the fact that they want to talk but don't know what to say. It still annoys me, though.
The usual introductory "nihongo ojozu desu ne" doesn't bother me, and neither do honest, thoughtful complements on my Japanese. What annoys me is when I've known someone for a while, and they're still laughing and clapping childishly on finding out that I can read kanji numerals or asking in awe whether I can really read hiragana and not just katakana.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - JimmySeal - 2011-08-15
In an ironic example of "nihongo jouzu" patronizing, I once watched a friend say "hajimemashite" (pretty much the only Japanese word he knew) to a new acquaintance, who responded with "nihongo jouzu!"
My friend then turned to me and said, "What did she just say?"
White People Can't Read Japanese. - Thora - 2011-08-15
@mezbup, yet more reasons why... :-)
- I think you know that people have been learning to speak Japanese well without learning to read for a long time. That would have influenced expectations. It's certainly not unusual even now to meet fluent speakers who don't read.
- The traditional class route teaches kanji at a slower rate. So even if a Japanese person knows someone is learning to read, they'd have no idea which kanji are known. It's not unreasonable to limit the number of kanji until they get a better sense of actual abilities.
- I bet it would surprise many Japanese to meet (non-chinese/korean) foreigners who read well, but cannot speak (which is the temporary outcome of some of the popular methods here.)
- Some learners don't see Japanese as just a means of communication, but also as a personal skill they've achieved and are excited to show off. (The guy trying to chat with the Japanese waitress to impress his friends. The kid boasting about how many kanji he knows. The person secretly hoping people on trains will notice his Japanese reading material.) I think some Japanese people pick up on this and graciously offer the praise and admiration that the person is seeking.
- It's not uncommon to overestimate our own abilities. When people respond with slow or simplified Japanese, it could be that they've picked up on our unnaturalness or failure to catch precise meanings and are just trying to facilitate smooth conversation. (The talking louder fits in with this somehow. ) haha
- Some Japanese have never dealt with foreign learners and really have no clue what to expect. (Learning to read Japanese requires a serious investment of time, so is it really so surprising that they're impressed or curious about the why and how?)
- Sure, it can be tiresome when it's acquaintances/colleagues who should know better, but I tend to agree with the suggestion to take comments from strangers as conversation starters or polite encouragement. [edit: ydtt and jimmyseal's katakana example is a bit baffling, though.]
White People Can't Read Japanese. - Gingerninja - 2011-08-15
JimmySeal Wrote:In an ironic example of "nihongo jouzu" patronizing, I once watched a friend say "hajimemashite" (pretty much the only Japanese word he knew) to a new acquaintance, who responded with "nihongo jouzu!"Haha, yeah one of the exchange students this semester went into a bar and when the waiter took his order and he answered with "arigatou", the waiter said "Nihongo Daijoubu" and gave him a thumbs up. To which my friend turned around and asked... "nihongo daijoubu? what the hell is he on about. "
My friend then turned to me and said, "What did she just say?"
White People Can't Read Japanese. - vileru - 2011-08-15
yudantaiteki Wrote:What annoys me is when I've known someone for a while, and they're still laughing and clapping childishly on finding out that I can read kanji numerals or asking in awe whether I can really read hiragana and not just katakana.This is the typical Japanese way of complimenting any skill or quality, even amongst themselves. When they hear another Japanese say the most basic English phrase, they lavish them with「ペラペラ」or「上手！」or some other stock phrase. It happens to my gf constantly. Her English is better than most native speakers, yet all her Japanese friends are awed that she can even say "Good morning." At any rate, I don't accept this idea that compliments of this sort are patronizing or condescending. It only seems that way when one assumes a foreign perspective.
In fact, I wonder what similar discussions (but from the opposite perspective) look like in English-learning forums for Japanese. It'd be hilarious if there were several posts on how foreigners are discouraging and insensitive because they rarely give out compliments. Maybe they even assume that no level of language ability is high enough to impress native English speakers just like how some of the posts here assume that no level of Japanese ability is high enough to prevent compliments like 「日本語上手」.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - mezbup - 2011-08-15
日本語上手 doesn't really phase me any more because I only every get it very rarely. Most people just flip out when they hear me speak and ask なんでそんなにうまい? Which is nicer because it shows actual surprise so I don't find it patronizing, I even like it, I'm just tired of having to answer it.
From what I've seen a ridiculous amount of Japanese that go overseas to learn English go to language schools (as u do) and make friends mostly with other Japanese or other non native English speakers and proceed to find work at a Japanese restaurant whilst barely ever talking to a native. Just a sweeping generalization but I think half the reason is that the Japanese themselves have little success learning language to fluency so it must be surprising when they see anyone do it. Consider that jap and Korean are grammatically the same yet fluent English speaking Koreans are a dime a dozen where I live. It's because Korean has more sounds than jap so they can hear and pronounce things better thus have a major advantage over Japanese. U know how Japanese is sleighted as the hardest language for an English speaker to learn? On the flipside of that for a Japanese EVERY language (except maybe spanish and Korean) is that hard to learn. Not to say they can't do it but... I've met very very few native level fluent English speaking Japanese... I guess it's the same situation.
I like the suggestion of saying that Japanese was extremely easy to learn. Sometimes or a laugh I claim to be half and everyone believes me but I don't like lying so after about 5 minutes I always say うそピョン！
In 2 years time when I've been learning jap for a full 5 years... I think I may get it less then.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - Thora - 2011-08-15
There are only a few sounds in English that are unfamiliar to Japanese. That isn't the reason English is difficult to learn. More to do with method and opportunity, I'd say.
Perhaps if you hung out in different crowds you might encounter more Japanese who are fluent in English?
White People Can't Read Japanese. - zigmonty - 2011-08-15
yudantaiteki Wrote:This. One of the things i hate hearing at work is that i've/we've "exceeded expectations". That may or may not be a genuine compliment, depending on tone. I've heard it more than a few times with a clear "the monkey can clap his hands!" tone.bodhisamaya Wrote:99.99% of all white people can't read Japanese. Enjoy being thought of as a genius. What is the downside?The problem is that most of the time they're not really taking you seriously; it's more in the vein of "the monkey can clap his hands!"
It takes maybe a couple of weeks to learn hiragana or katakana, if you don't go at it that aggressively. Japanese kids can often read them *before* going to school. Praise for knowing them should be taken as the insult it is. Now, they may not be setting out to insult you, but if so, that's a seriously lack of awareness on their part. It's right up there with awe over a woman being able to add two numbers together. I think i'd rather a direct insult than a compliment made out of a racist notion beginner japanese is anything to be proud of.
The correct response is to make fun of their english in the same way.
White People Can't Read Japanese. - vileru - 2011-08-15
zigmonty Wrote:It takes maybe a couple of weeks to learn hiragana or katakana, if you don't go at it that aggressively. Japanese kids can often read them *before* going to school. Praise for knowing them should be taken as the insult it is. Now, they may not be setting out to insult you, but if so, that's a seriously lack of awareness on their part. It's right up there with awe over a woman being able to add two numbers together. I think i'd rather a direct insult than a compliment made out of a racist notion beginner japanese is anything to be proud of.Actually, that's exactly what I do. I respond with the same awe and surprise when I hear a Japanese person speak English (that is, if I'm in Japan or if the preceding conversation was in Japanese). Of course, they reply with the normal script「上手じゃありません」or something similar. It's just part of the way people talk.
The correct response is to make fun of their english in the same way.
Furthermore, I think it's best to give compliments in the same way if you want to fit in. In general, Asian cultures are all about doing things the "proper" way. Being ethnically Asian, I was constantly reminded of this by my mom while I was growing up. I learned to greet people in a certain order (eldest first), a variety of stock compliments, and many other prescribed cultural norms. Generally, behavior and dialogue in Asian cultures are extremely scripted compared to the West.
Regardless of your opinions about the culture, "patronizing compliments" are a standard part of the dialogue. And it's best to follow along if you want to be immersed in the culture. Almost without fail, when Asian people don't know what to do in a certain social situation, they just copy everyone else. If you do the same, they may say「日本人みたい」instead of 「日本語上手」.