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London riots - nest0r - 2011-08-12
This Mac user had their laptop stolen and subsequently recovered during the riots: http://infosec20.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-you-dont-steal-from-hacker.html
London riots - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-13
Russell Brand offers another perspective
London riots - IceCream - 2011-08-13
lol! +1 to both of the above.
London riots - JimmySeal - 2011-08-13
bodhisamaya Wrote:Russell Brand offers another perspectiveNotice the thief was seen shopping for a Mercedes A Class on autotrader. A real poverty-stricken member of the underclass there.
I'll shed a tear for him and all the other destitute rioters.
London riots - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-13
Maybe he was just trying to find the location of the car so he could steal it.
London riots - pudding cat - 2011-08-13
An alternative look at looting.
London riots - thecite - 2011-08-13
bodhisamaya Wrote:Russell Brand offers another perspectiveI prefer this comment on the video:
Someone Wrote:I'm getting so goddamn annoyed with the "let's analyze the deeper meaning of it" bullshit. They were punks. Sure there may have been a handful that had a purpose but they were outnumbered by the thousands upon thousands that just wanted some new sneakers and a Wii. If their real hatred was towards the bankers and the powerful, then why destroy corner barbershops and mom and pop business. Why not burn down banks and break into mansions.
London riots - IceCream - 2011-08-13
i think that comment misses russell brands point...
he's talking about wanting to feel a sense of purpose, mounting frustration, that kind of thing. Not that the rioters were so logical and rational they'd go and loot the correct targets of that frustration.
And the point still stands about the level of outrage shown to this in comparison to the scummy bankers who got off with nothing more than a slightly smaller bonus (if even that).
p.s. here's his blog... http://www.russellbrand.tv/2011/08/big-brother-isnt-watching-you/
London riots - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-13
The guy was putting things in perspective. The looters were criminals to be sure, but they were petty thieves compared to the real harm being done to society by those who get away with no punishment at all. I love Dylan Ratigan for telling it like in is in America.
London riots - midnightsun - 2011-08-13
Agree with much of what Brand say but he is a hypocrite. Most Guardian readers are. Next time you buy the Guardian and Observer just look at the all the advertizing imploring us to buy things we don't need to make our empty lives happier.
Prefer the quote from thecite. There are real problems but the situation is not all down to greed of the bankers (whom I despise). This is too simplistic and lazy. Please, someone tell me why, mostly, the Muslim based community did not riot, nor the Indian, certainly not the Chinese, why the Jews did not riot under worse conditions, the Russsians, today East Europeans. etc. Indeed on this occasion, most black and white underclass did not riot? There are structural and social faults but if we cannot face the truth of benefit culture, family and community breakdown in both the black and working class white community the problem will not be solved. You can take away the bankers and the Eton toffs (whom I despise), the problem will remain. In fact, though it is unpalatable for me to admit this, without them Britain would collapse and the recent events will be childs play.
In the upper echelons there are double standards, but as a Green Party supporter, let me tell you it is not the only with with them. Green councillors with two cars, sometimes three. A cottage in the country, depriving local people of cheap housing. Other not paying any tax. Further, a Green member with a disabled bay but walks without any trouble, plays sports (less now) and has a huge allotment. I could go on.
We need to learn to do the right thing at ALL levels.
I have a love hate relationship with Japan. People talk about the lost decade. Really it is nearly two decades now and has caused deep problems. But how well they have coped considering. Sadly, Britain won't. You watch foreign investors leave us and go to Germany.
I found the clip from the Young Turks video indulgent, but the Dylan Rattigan had is so right.
London riots - JimmySeal - 2011-08-13
IceCream Wrote:And the point still stands about the level of outrage shown to this in comparison to the scummy bankers who got off with nothing more than a slightly smaller bonus (if even that).I guess you and Russel Brand aren't familiar with the term "Two wrongs don't make a right." It's especially applicable here because there's no direct link between those bankers and these riots.
Let's go beat some homeless people to death. It's still not as bad as what those bankers did!
London riots - IceCream - 2011-08-13
did you actually bother to read the blog post?
London riots - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-13
JimmySeal Wrote:I guess you and Russel Brand aren't familiar with the term "Two wrongs don't make a right." It's especially applicable here because there's no direct link between those bankers and these riots.The point of his statement was that the consequences of what the bankers did on the overall health of the economy was far worse than what the rioters did. In truth, the bankers did beat homeless people to death. They might have never become homeless if not for the banks' actions. Irresponsible corporations murder indirectly far more than can be measured by police statistics.
Let's go beat some homeless people to death. It's still not as bad as what those bankers did!
London riots - Sebastian - 2011-08-13
JimmySeal Wrote:Here is the original blog article, in case anyone wants to read it: Russell Brand: Big Brother isn’t watching youIceCream Wrote:And the point still stands about the level of outrage shown to this in comparison to the scummy bankers who got off with nothing more than a slightly smaller bonus (if even that).I guess you and Russel Brand aren't familiar with the term "Two wrongs don't make a right." It's especially applicable here because there's no direct link between those bankers and these riots.
Let's go beat some homeless people to death. It's still not as bad as what those bankers did!
People rioting and looting are certainly criminals, and they should take responsibility for what they've done. Nevertheless, violent events are not something isolated from the rest of the world, or from previous events. It's not like people throw a dice everyday and wait for some specific number to appear and then go committing crimes and go psycho. I think that it's important to separate justifications from explanations. Rioting, looting and random murdering have no justification, but if you don't try to find some explanations for what has happened, if you don't try to understand why it happened, then you can't find a solution. Neither will you manage to find a way to prevent those events from occurring again (and again).
It's natural to feel abused and angry, and to want to make people pay for what they've done. Nonetheless, if you don't take a step away from the situation, try to use your head to rationally think about it and come to some conclusions, then you can end up generating more violence, instead of stopping it.
If you want to judge, you should at least try to understand. If you want to take measures, you should try to understand the real motivations that are behind your ideas, and the consequences of those measures. If you don't, you will become just another step in an endless loop.
I think everybody should try to learn about the reasons why events that on the surface look so irrational and pointless actually happen. Just feeling outraged won't solve anything.
Do you think that these kind of events only occur under very specific circumstances, or that it's a natural tendency for people to accumulate tension for some time and then explode? Do you think there will come a time where riots, looting and unruly mobs will be mentioned only in history books? Why?
London riots - IceCream - 2011-08-13
Sebastian Wrote:Thankyou Sebastian!!!JimmySeal Wrote:Here is the original blog article, in case anyone wants to read it: Russell Brand: Big Brother isn’t watching youIceCream Wrote:And the point still stands about the level of outrage shown to this in comparison to the scummy bankers who got off with nothing more than a slightly smaller bonus (if even that).I guess you and Russel Brand aren't familiar with the term "Two wrongs don't make a right." It's especially applicable here because there's no direct link between those bankers and these riots.
Let's go beat some homeless people to death. It's still not as bad as what those bankers did!
People rioting and looting are certainly criminals, and they should take responsibility for what they've done. Nevertheless, violent events are not something isolated from the rest of the world, or from previous events. It's not like people throw a dice everyday and wait for some specific number to appear and then go committing crimes and go psycho. I think that it's important to separate justifications from explanations. Rioting, looting and random murdering have no justification, but if you don't try to find some explanations for what has happened, if you don't try to understand why it happened, then you can't find a solution. Neither will you manage to find a way to prevent those events from occurring again (and again).
It's natural to feel abused and angry, and to want to make people pay for what they've done. Nonetheless, if you don't take a step away from the situation, try to use your head to rationally think about it and come to some conclusions, then you can end up generating more violence, instead of stopping it.
If you want to judge, you should at least try to understand. If you want to take measures, you should try to understand the real motivations that are behind your ideas, and the consequences of those measures. If you don't, you will become just another step in an endless loop.
I think everybody should try to learn about the reasons why events that on the surface look so irrational and pointless actually happen. Just feeling outraged won't solve anything.
Do you think that these kind of events only occur under very specific circumstances, or that it's a natural tendency for people to accumulate tension for some time and then explode? Do you think there will come a time where riots, looting and unruly mobs will be mentioned only in history books? Why?
this is what i've been trying to get at, but i'm not even close to eloquent enough to express it as clearly as you have, or like Russell Brand does.
i hope everyone reads it!!!
London riots - Omoishinji - 2011-08-13
IceCream Wrote:Thankyou Sebastian!!!Here is another article that might be of interest from Scientific American.
this is what i've been trying to get at, but i'm not even close to eloquent enough to express it as clearly as you have, or like Russell Brand does.
i hope everyone reads it!!!
Rabble with a Cause: Were the London Riots a Spontaneous Mass Reaction or a Rational Response?
I was looking for a different article when I saw it.
London riots - midnightsun - 2011-08-13
@ Sebastian and Icecream,
What you say is laudable and perfectly reasonable. Same for Brand. Though remember the reason he resigned? Did not show too much respect himself, did he?. Total hypocrite.
The trouble is, though the riots are much worse than normal (in my opinion they are no where near as bad as the the riots I remember in the 70s and 80s) we have known the reasons and solutions for many years. There has been enquiry after enquiry. Recently, Black on Black gun crime has sparked many new studies. More money has been invested in these areas than any part of the UK, apart from Northern Ireland. Most of those people rioted for greed. Look how few parents are turning up at court with their children (though today we have seen some parents taking their kids to the police voluntarily). You have an answer there. Look at the cross section of people caught. Not just underclass people. Also, actually mostly white. Professional people often. There is just a widespread lack of respect, which Brand certainly has epitomized.
Just deleted a load of stuff. This subject makes me angry. My sister's place is wrecked. She knows the people. They are just a bad lot. Period.
To outsiders reading this. Britain is still mostly a fine country and the young here are fine including in those rioted areas. The poor Malaysian attacked is not running home. Look at his good grace and manners!
Ask your questions. Sure. You will find the same old answers and solutions. In the meantime, THE LAW MUST BE UPHELD OR THERE IS ANARCHY! If not, people like me will start to defend our own and I don't think you would like that. We are not Bankers. We are ordinary people who have struggled every bit as your poor victims and have put up with this crap for years. We have been patient enough.
London riots - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-13
There are times when laws should not be upheld. Those who burned their draft cards during the Vietnam war were morally correct. If a village chief orders the gang rape of a girl, disobeying that law also would be appropriate. Women marching against a prohibition of being topless when the laws do not apply to men is my favorite example!
Using violent means of protest is never justified.
London riots - Omoishinji - 2011-08-13
Quote:If a village chief orders the gang rape of a girl, disobeying that law also would be appropriate.I don't understand the reasoning behind such a comment.
The village chief isn't the law. If an absurd situation does happen then the law must be upheld. The village chief should be defied.
London riots - zigmonty - 2011-08-13
Omoishinji Wrote:In many tribal societies, he is (or a group of elders is). I believe bodhisamaya was referring to such a society in isolation, not one inside a modern nation with written law.Quote:If a village chief orders the gang rape of a girl, disobeying that law also would be appropriate.I don't understand the reasoning behind such a comment.
The village chief isn't the law. If an absurd situation does happen then the law must be upheld. The village chief should be defied.
Even then, there have been a few attempts in Australia to allow tribal justice to solve problems within Aboriginal communities rather than just arresting people and throwing them in prison. Anyway, kinda off topic.
I think bodhisamaya's point is that laws aren't always just. And if they're not, upholding them is unjust.
London riots - Omoishinji - 2011-08-13
@midnightsun, We live a society based on law. Unfortunately, some feel that in the moment it is best to disregard the laws. The actions in Britain are horrible, but must be viewed as the police helpless against criminals. It isn't that these people are by nature criminals, but their thoughtless actions have made them criminals.
There are some who believe that just because of an injustice that they perceive that it is justifiable to break a law. What they fail to realize that the actions aren't about breaking the law, but bring attention to an injustice. In some situations it is also about stopping a perceived injustice.
Watching shop owners lives work being ruined by criminals, makes you want to help them. Seeing neighborhoods in turmoil, makes you hope that when you blink it has ended. The rioter are acting based on selfish actions. They view others committing crimes, and feel that they can get away with it. Many have been arrested, and no sympathy should be felt towards them.
I don't know how many arrested will be occurring in the coming months.
London riots - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-13
I was thinking of an actual law in a certain theocracy that punishes a rapist by having his sister gang raped.
London riots - Thora - 2011-08-13
Brand's banker argument seems like a red herring to me. It also isn't the total double standard he implies as there's been a massive backlash against bankers. [nevermind]
I took Sebastian's post as focusing on process, not advocating any particular stance. He reminds people to consider the problem from all angles rather than reacting consistent with existing preconceptions and political viewpoints. At least that's how I interpreted it. :-)
modification of what midnightsun Wrote:it does seem to me that [midnightsun] comes across as aggressive and rather superior and [narcissistic...] If you think you can do better, then [run for office.] Stop pontificating.sorry, couldn't resist.
(my changes in [ ])Let's try to disagree with people respectfully, shall we? (The personal insults didn't really add to that discussion, imo.)
/off topic plea
London riots - IceCream - 2011-08-14
well, Russell Brand is a comedian. You shouldn't take that reference to the bankers thing entirely literally. He's just using humour to draw attention to a parralel sort of situation that you might not normally consider. The point is to put things in a different perspective a little, not to make a formal argument that either one is correct, or exactly the same, or connected.
@midnightsun:
here's an interesting article about who the rioters were: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part
you're wrong if you think that they were mainly white, or made up of black and white people only. There were plenty of Asians who took part too. It's quite a large cross-section of people who took part.
You point to a widespread lack of respect as the reason for people acting this way. Ok... but that seems like it's almost a given, given what's happened. So, let's look a bit deeper... why do so many people have a lack of respect? You point to bad parenting. But, is it really just down to parents? Aren't there things society can do if parents fail? Or should we just resign ourselves to thinking that everyone who doesn't have good parents will end up a "bad lot"? Are there other reasons why people might feel angry and disconnected enough from their communities to destroy it? etc.
Haven't you ever done anything that lacks respect for others, or was just not so good in your life? Weren't there ever reasons, either social or personal that triggered those circumstances other than you just being a bad person in general?
p.s. did you notice that riots only seem to occur under conservative governments in this country lol?
London riots - dizmox - 2011-08-14
Quote:p.s. did you notice that riots only seem to occur under conservative governments in this country lol?Sounds more like a fallout of Labour policies to me this time.