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thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-06
Soo I've finally reached Japan, been here almost a week now but deliberately didn't want to post in heat of the moment, partly because I was dead tired at first (jet lag + summer weather is a killer) and partly because I wanted to gain some more knowledge/perspective.
The weather... I've read about hundred times how Japan in the summer is just awful & horrible but in reality its far worse than that. Its incredible how hot & damp it is here and every time I get used to a set of temperatures Tokyo brings it to a next level (it was 25C at night a few days back, now it says 28C).
Culture is everything I expected it to be and more, it really is a different place on earth and its really refreshing to see that. I wanted culture shock and I got one. Where European countries differ a bit from each other this is a different thing entirely. The cars (usually ugly as hell, no wonder they don't try to sell them to us), the buildings, the people and their customs, everything is completely different. When I landed here I wasn't really "there", I sort of expected fanfares in my head and that I'd instantly like everything I see but it didn't happen. At least not at first, maybe I was just using my Old Continent mentality for too long and Japan really didn't fit in it. But as each day passes I'm beginning to like it more and more.
The language and cultural exchange is a bit different than I expected, partly because I read some stuff here which turned out completely opposite. For example, I really don't get it why there was a thread whining about Japanese using English when you approach them. For the past week I was approached a couple of times and have been initiating conversation many times more and only today a person switched to English (to make it even more unique situation it was a homeless person with decent English). I'm as white as they come, my speaking skill is just atrocious (even got praised today and we all know it means
) so it would make TONS of sense to switch to English if they even barely can utter something out but nobody did it! Once in Yodobashi a shopping assistant switched to English for a moment ("here is your passport") but she instantly "corrected" herself in Japanese and that was that, I bought a camera in Japan in Japanese, even haggled a bit.Another thing is there really isn't that much speaking practice to be had as you'd expect from coming here, just your everyday routine + touristy stuff. So far I haven't found a Go salon so can't tell how much a hobby can help but if you don't have anyone to talk to, a hobby might be your best bet for more serious human interaction. I'll also try some meetups (only know Internations does one, so if there are others please let me know) but I don't know how much Japanese is used there. My last bet is pubs/clubs but I feel a bit weird and also scared going there alone so I want to get used to the city some more before I go "wild"
On the upside there is tons of reading practice both voluntary and forced. I can't read books well, can't read kids comics, the menu also poses a problem (lots of words I've never seen) but apparently my level of Japanese is suited for reading ads everywhere
This is another thing I discovered, my sucky Japanese is the product of putting too much focus on vocab & SRS (but I'm still like half way there) and very little actual study/practice time and since I obviously cannot do both (as I haven't for the past two years) I stopped SRSing vocab and now I'm gonna devote that time for some actual study.I'll keep posting in this thread as I go further into the unknown, maybe even do a quick review of what I've seen already and what I'd recommend.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - dusmar84 - 2011-08-06
Welcome to Tokyo!
Youve come right in the middle of all of the summer matsuri's & fireworks festivals, so definitely try to check one out and maybe even pick up a cute girl in a yukata.
As for the homeless here, you definitely get your standard, dirty, worn out, delusional bum but then there's a whole other sub section of homeless who seem to be doing it to save money or something. Im not joking, their clothes are always clean, their hair combed and the make little sleeping chambers out of cardboard boxes and even take their shoes off before going in. It really is something to be seen.
Btw, what do you mean by 'actual study'?
Enjoy!
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - vileru - 2011-08-06
thurd Wrote:The weather... I've read about hundred times how Japan in the summer is just awful & horrible but in reality its far worse than that. Its incredible how hot & damp it is here and every time I get used to a set of temperatures Tokyo brings it to a next level (it was 25C at night a few days back, now it says 28C).I doubt this will help you, but I thought it'd be amusing to mention that my Vietnamese friends living in Japan (in Sendai, which, to be fair, is cooler than Tokyo) think the summer weather is cold. Likewise, I've lived in the Philippines before, and I find the Japanese summer to be like a paradise compared to the damp, blistering hot, typhoon-ridden Filipino equivalent.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-07
dusmar84 Wrote:Btw, what do you mean by 'actual study'?Hmm u know, the usual: reading with various aids (dictionaries, grammar references), watching more shows in Japanese and some pure book study (for example I wanted to finally finish Japanese the manga way).
So far I've been using SRS as a procrastination device to not do anything in/for Japanese ("since I already done something"-reps) and it really shows in my inability to articulate even the simplest thoughts when needed. If I have time to prepare I can start with one/two good sentences and if I'm lucky that will be all and I can just listen to their response but if a problem arises and there is a question from my speaker it usually ends with me looking really awkward and mumbling some barely coherent words
I see that even my spoken English need some dusting off since I'm nowhere near my peak (really not that high) but it never is so awkward/uncomfortable/stressful like with Japanese.
vileru Wrote:I doubt this will help you, but I thought it'd be amusing to mention that my Vietnamese friends living in Japan (in Sendai, which, to be fair, is cooler than Tokyo) think the summer weather is cold. Likewise, I've lived in the Philippines before, and I find the Japanese summer to be like a paradise compared to the damp, blistering hot, typhoon-ridden Filipino equivalent.Hehehe yeah I head it too, I just can't imagine that it could be even worse
I can only hope it will stabilize and my body will eventually adjust.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-07
August just started, so we have a long ways to go. Actually, the past couple of weeks have been milder than normal. I don't expect that to continue though.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - JimmySeal - 2011-08-07
Shouldn't this thread's title be "Close encounters of the thurd kind"? ;-)
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-08
JimmySeal Wrote:Shouldn't this thread's title be "Close encounters of the thurd kind"? ;-)Yeah that would be even better, why didn't I think of that?
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - ta12121 - 2011-08-08
JimmySeal Wrote:Shouldn't this thread's title be "Close encounters of the thurd kind"? ;-)cool
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - dizmox - 2011-08-08
I don't know what you mean about Japan being a culture shock. Back home is more of a culture shock.
ta12121 Wrote:Contentless post #2299... or so. Just saying.JimmySeal Wrote:Shouldn't this thread's title be "Close encounters of the thurd kind"? ;-)cool
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - ta12121 - 2011-08-08
dizmox Wrote:Gotta increase my post count somehow lolta12121 Wrote:Contentless post #2299... or so. Just saying.JimmySeal Wrote:Shouldn't this thread's title be "Close encounters of the thurd kind"? ;-)cool
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - kainzero - 2011-08-08
thurd Wrote:For example, I really don't get it why there was a thread whining about Japanese using English when you approach them. For the past week I was approached a couple of times and have been initiating conversation many times more and only today a person switched to English (to make it even more unique situation it was a homeless person with decent English).I was probably the only person complaining about them using Chinese on me.
I'm Filipino.
lol.
As for the homeless person, I think they are more apt to approach foreigners because they actually give them money when they beg, whereas Japanese do not.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - SammyB - 2011-08-08
dizmo Wrote:coolta12121 Wrote:Contentless post #2299... or so. Just saying.JimmySeal Wrote:Shouldn't this thread's title be "Close encounters of the thurd kind"? ;-)cool
It was so deadpan I thought it might have been sarcasm! Haha..
But yeah I'm pretty sure what ta12121 meant to say was something about how with a few good resources and hard work, anyone can become fluent in a 2-5 year time frame.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - Koos83 - 2011-08-17
thurd Wrote:Soo I've finally reached Japan, been here almost a week now but deliberately didn't want to post in heat of the moment, partly because I was dead tired at first (jet lag + summer weather is a killer) and partly because I wanted to gain some more knowledge/perspective.This really made me smile, because I had the exact same experience, arriving in Japan (for a holiday) last year. I was like: Is this it and OH MY GOD I will never survive this heat!!! I thought the buildings especially were ugly concrete blocks (especially in Osaka, but it got better in places like Kyoto and Nara) and there wasn't anything typically 'Japanese' in my view on the way from the airport to the hotel. Luckily that also soon changed for me as I got to see more things and I actually got used to the heat, which I never thought I would as I can never get used to it here in Holland (though this year, when it's 30 degrees, I'm like: psah! Stop complaining, wusses).
The weather... I've read about hundred times how Japan in the summer is just awful & horrible but in reality its far worse than that. Its incredible how hot & damp it is here and every time I get used to a set of temperatures Tokyo brings it to a next level (it was 25C at night a few days back, now it says 28C).
Culture is everything I expected it to be and more, it really is a different place on earth and its really refreshing to see that. I wanted culture shock and I got one. Where European countries differ a bit from each other this is a different thing entirely. The cars (usually ugly as hell, no wonder they don't try to sell them to us), the buildings, the people and their customs, everything is completely different. When I landed here I wasn't really "there", I sort of expected fanfares in my head and that I'd instantly like everything I see but it didn't happen. At least not at first, maybe I was just using my Old Continent mentality for too long and Japan really didn't fit in it. But as each day passes I'm beginning to like it more and more.
Anyway, I hope you have a great time there, that it lives up to your expectations and doesn't disappoint you and I'm really looking forward to reading more.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-22
So two weeks have passed, its a good time to summarize at least this part of my trip. I'm still having fun and discovering new things daily but I'm also slowly easing into my version of a "Japanese" way of life. It's something in between a daily routine and being on holidays.
I'll try not to review the usual meccas for Tokyo visitors and instead focus mainly on things that get little or no attention on "mainstream" guides (though wikitravel sometimes provides this kind of interesting information):
1. Nomihodai Yukata Cruise in Tokyo Bay - if you're in Tokyo during summer you'll want to see/experience this. Lots of people in Yukatas, beer and great night view on the city. Bring some friends, try to make new ones or just focus on getting the best possible view at this magnificent city.
2. Tokyo Metropolitan Government - I have to agree on this with wikitravel, its a much better option than Tokyo Tower and its completely free!! Make sure to visit both observation decks since they provide a bit different perspective on surrounding architecture. The nearby park provides a nice change of scenery after all this concrete madness, bonus points for a charming small temple that's hidden inside.
World Trade Center Building is supposed to be even better but I haven't been there yet.
3. Hama-rikyu Gardens - in my opinion beats Ueno or Yoyogi without breaking a sweat. It looks amazing and high rise buildings that surround it multiply the effect. Its like a forgotten green island of tradition inside a techno-industrialized ocean. Remember to visit the traditional tea house on a small island in one of the park ponds. There is even a water bus that you can use to get to Asakusa if your thirst for tradition isn't satisfied yet.
Language wise not much has changed. I think I'm getting better and more bold but without a regular entourage of Japanese speaking friends chances for a longer conversation are rare. My plan to use Go as a way to talk failed miserably since only old people attend such salons (hard to understand, lots of strange vocab, politeness level problems), they are quite expensive (1k yen) to use regularly considering the amount of actual speaking you can get there and mostly because you'll be playing all the time not talking. Maybe I should try a windsurfing club or find a basketball court somewhere
I did get a normal radio to have something playing while I'm in my room and decided to quit reading/watching my usual English language media and focus only on Japanese. Call it AJATT or whatever but I figured I really have to increase my intensity to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - mezbup - 2011-08-22
Regular friends that you hang out with all the time are the best thing. Though, hard to make with a low level of language ability which leads to a real catch 22. How long are you over there? Defs focus solely on Japanese stuff and you'll improve.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - aphasiac - 2011-08-22
Why are yoin Japan? Holiday or study??
You get used to the heat fairly quickly, don't worry. Lack of speaking practise is an issue though; be careful, cos it's easy to get by with just English and a few words/phrases - don't get stuck in that trap..
mezbup Wrote:Regular friends that you hang out with all the time are the best thing. Though, hard to make with a low level of language ability which leads to a real catch 22.Get J-girlfriend. You know it makes perfect sense. Or do "language exchange", basically the same thing..
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - ta12121 - 2011-08-22
SammyB Wrote:I'm aiming for the 4 year mark. But yea I still stand by the 2-5 year mark.dizmo Wrote:coolta12121 Wrote:coolContentless post #2299... or so. Just saying.
It was so deadpan I thought it might have been sarcasm! Haha..
But yeah I'm pretty sure what ta12121 meant to say was something about how with a few good resources and hard work, anyone can become fluent in a 2-5 year time frame.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-22
mezbup Wrote:Regular friends that you hang out with all the time are the best thing. Though, hard to make with a low level of language ability which leads to a real catch 22. How long are you over there? Defs focus solely on Japanese stuff and you'll improve.Yeah its a paradox, you can't get good at a language before you get good at it...
I'm only around 3 weeks here, doing sightseeing almost every day.
aphasiac Wrote:Why are yoin Japan? Holiday or study??I'm on holiday, just relaxing and trying to push my Japanese a little bit forward. So far, people I've hang out with were mostly English speaking but I cannot imagine using Japanese in such social situations without a significant confidence booster (booze)
You get used to the heat fairly quickly, don't worry. Lack of speaking practise is an issue though; be careful, cos it's easy to get by with just English and a few words/phrases - don't get stuck in that trap..
aphasiac Wrote:Get J-girlfriend. You know it makes perfect sense. Or do "language exchange", basically the same thing..It's just another spiral, if you can't speak how do you get the girl (besides being Brad Pitt) that speaks only Japanese? Having an English speaking girlfriend kind of defeats the purpose
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-25
I've finally tried okonomiyaki and ramen!! From what I've found on the net Kiji seemed to be the place to go for the best okonomiyaki in town and indeed it was great. Even got inside without a problem but as I was leaving a queue has already formed so I guess the stories about waiting around an hour are true. I ordered Sujiyaki, it was a great choice and I highly recommend it. I think negi is my secret ingredient in Japanese dining
Ramen was from a local shop but its supposedly quite famous ramen place and indeed its almost always packed, very tasty too.
I've been working hard on my listening/reading and I feel its getting better but sometimes its so hard to quantify this kind of thing. I understand things that I'm not sure I'd be able to before I came here and reading my faithful Jump is getting easier and faster.
I'm roughly 10h into L-R, finished the first HP book and today I'm starting the second one but this time a bit different: I'll just read Japanese (Polish version will be there just as a reference), while listening to Japanese, but I also plan to relentlessly repeat each sentence/passage till I get it completely. I'll also be looking at all unknown words through Yomichan but without adding them to SRS (book will be my SRS, if its not repeated enough it means its not that important).
I've been slowly working on due pile in Anki but I've put a limit of 30mins each day so I don't get sucked into it too much. When my daily reviews will be less than those 30mins I'll add some new vocab.
I've also made some observations about the general "success" of foreign Japanese learners and it doesn't look good at all. So far I know only one girl that is really good (I cannot distinguish her from a native, I'm sure natives can spot some flaws) but her secret is an intensive course when she came to Japan and 5 years of everyday practice when she was a student here. No magical SRS, no funky methods of self learning just pure classes+forced immersion. Other people I've met were decent (much better than me anyhow) but nothing stellar or mind-blowing and of course their abilities depended on how long they have been here and how many opportunities they had for practice (people with jobs and/or Japanese GF/BF were much more "fluent" in getting a new point across). Its not only accent that gets better with time but also speed, word choice and general "flow" of conversation.
But overall I wouldn't call any of them fluent or even close to that. If we take reading/writing into account it gets even worse since they're usually so focused on speaking/listening they barely know any kanji and thus are practically illiterate. No wonder Japanese are stunned by foreigners reading kanji, they probably haven't met any!!!
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - zachandhobbes - 2011-08-25
If you've been in Japan, I guarantee your Listening got better, whether you realize it or not! You'll start understanding things like crazy and wish you could respond
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - Tzadeck - 2011-08-26
Yeah, you won't meet that many non-Asian foreigners with really excellent Japanese. The reason is that very few westerners study Japanese during high school, and there's no real economic motivation to study Japanese for most westerners.
Whereas, there are a lot of high schools in Asia which offer Japanese courses. There are also a lot of people who want to come to Japan to make money. So you will meet a lot of Asian people from other countries who are quite fluent.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - dtcamero - 2011-08-26
thurd Wrote:2. Tokyo Metropolitan Government - I have to agree on this with wikitravel, its a much better option than Tokyo Tower and its completely free!! Make sure to visit both observation decks since they provide a bit different perspective on surrounding architecture. The nearby park provides a nice change of scenery after all this concrete madness, bonus points for a charming small temple that's hidden inside.i'm sorry what
World Trade Center Building is supposed to be even better but I haven't been there yet.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - chair - 2011-08-26
dtcamero Wrote:http://tinyurl.com/43jg5muthurd Wrote:2. Tokyo Metropolitan Government - I have to agree on this with wikitravel, its a much better option than Tokyo Tower and its completely free!! Make sure to visit both observation decks since they provide a bit different perspective on surrounding architecture. The nearby park provides a nice change of scenery after all this concrete madness, bonus points for a charming small temple that's hidden inside.i'm sorry what
World Trade Center Building is supposed to be even better but I haven't been there yet.
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - Omoishinji - 2011-08-26
dtcamero Wrote:It is a surprise to me, too. A search found the World Trade Centers Association and 世界貿易センタービルディング.Quote:World Trade Center Building is supposed to be even better but I haven't been there yet.i'm sorry what
thurd's Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - Japan - thurd - 2011-08-26
I don't think that even in America with its ridiculous patent system it is possible to patent the name "World Trade Center", even considering what happened there. I thought it was peculiar but didn't surprise me that much