sesshomaru Wrote:The phony hysteria here is what makes is 'anti marketing' so effective and at times quite funny.

IceCream Wrote:... honestly, i'm not too sure why you care this much about how some guy makes his money...?

Quote:Rather than complain about it, if you feel like you could offer a better service than he does, why not do something similar? The market's open for competition, there's nothing stopping you...

IceCream Wrote:I don't think there's really much "information asymmetry" about Khatz's products, per se. I mean, everything is stated pretty clearly on his site. It's not like the differences in pricing, the lack of refund for 18 months, or anything else is in fine print somewhere that nobody can find. It's right there, for everyone to read already. If they still want to buy it, that's their choice (or problem lol).

And, it's not like it's not blindingly obvious already that all the information on how to learn Japanese is available on the internet, for free. I guess my perception of AJATT isn't as influenced by the "guru image" as the older members of this forum, because i wasn't around at the time when people did treat him like that. So whenever i read that kind of criticism i kinda roll my eyes, because i haven't really seen anyone who does treat him like that. But anyway, so i don't really think people are buying it because they think he's god or something.

The real "information assymetry" lies in the lack of any clear, well organised resource for learning Japanese available on the internet. Almost everything you'd ever need to learn Japanese is available on these forums. But it takes time and effort to stay updated, to find the resources to begin with, to learn how to use them, to decide which ones to use and which not to, and to trawl through all the varying opinions on language learning and methods to get there.

It's overwhelming. It is even to me sometimes, and i have all the time in the world. Sometimes it takes me months to find the effort to learn a new tool. It took me a few months at the start even to find anki. If i don't read the forum for a week, i come back and know that i've probably missed something cool or incredibly useful. There's weeks where i just literally can't be bothered to search for interesting stuff in Japanese. If i was working, i doubt i'd find the energy to do much at all really.

You've already seen an example of the type of person who's buying Khatz stuff in the last silverspoon thread. Someone with a job, and a baby he wants to devote all the rest of his energy to while she's awake. Is he aware that all the information and resources he'd need to learn Japanese are already available for free? Sure. Is he gonna feel cheated to know that if he learned on his own he would be at the same level without paying that money? I doubt it. Even if he knew that some parts of Khatz method are redundant, or could be done better? Probably still not.

Khatz isn't selling snakeskin oil, he's selling simplicity and organisation. It's not actually a scam, because everyone knows and understands that. The information may all be available for free, but the daily organisation isn't.

i can think of some situations i could be in where i would prefer to buy something like that too. I can think of lots of people on this forum i would rather buy it from. (i don't like his taste in dramas lol) And i can think of many ways in which the service could be improved. Especially the lack of personal tailoring would be bothersome to me. Is it worth the price? If people are willing to pay that, then it is. If they're not, it isn't. It's not like he has any competition right now though, so he can charge more.

tbh though, if someone wanted to charge a dollar or two a day just for 5-10 interesting links (tailored to my interests) that would take up a couple of hours in Japanese, it'd probably be worth it for me. i'd like it if i could just get them whenever i felt like it though...

Is the money better spent elsewhere? I guess the thing that a lot of people on this forum miss is that the worth of any one thing is relative to the chances that you're going to give up on it. Is doing RTK the best thing to do? If you're one of those people who can get it done in a month, probably it is. If you're one of those people who has tried twice in the last year and ended up missing reviews, getting burnt out and then trying again, and in the meantime haven't learned any japanese at all, well, no, it's not. It doesn't matter how ideal the method may be, it's whether you can do it in practise. If Khatz's organisation of the material keeps people doing Japanese on a regular basis, and keeps people motivated where they wouldn't be otherwise, it's probably worth it for them.

sesshomaru Wrote:Very well stated. You're experience sounds a lot like mine, including the initial Anki confusion. Interestingly enough, I seem to recall reading Khatz offering an explanation regarding who Silverspoon was for and who it wasn't for.

dtcamero Wrote:I didn't buy silverspoon but I can imagine some ppl that simply dont want to spend the time/effort figuring this stuff out... maybe they're time is too valuable, whatever... doesn't make the thing a scam. As long as he DOES give the money back, he's offered a product with very clear terms (you might not like them but they are clear) which would be totally acceptable to the better business bureau for example, and that rules out any snake-oil stuff. You can say it's overpriced but thats entirely subjective as mentioned earlier.

AJATT Wrote:"SilverSpoon. The only program in the history of Japanese that has the guts and the goods to guarantee and deliver what you deserve: fluency in 595 days. " (bold in original)

jasdev Wrote:

Thanks for this! I concur, on first impressions his Japanese is good, but better than anyone on this forum? That's a little extreme. He's certainly better than I am, though

aphasiac Wrote:His pronunciation and way of speaking are apprently indistinguishable from a native. They all assumed he had been raised in Japan.

bodhisamaya Wrote:He is making claims for a product that has never been proven effective in the past to deliver what it promises and charging a hefty fee for it. It is a scam plain and simple.

Tzadeck Wrote:Err, he's distinguishable from a native. Not that I doubt that you may have Japanese friends who said that; Japanese people sometimes say strange things when it comes to assessing their own language (which is the reason that that TokyoZeplin guy on Youtube is convinced that a lot of Japanese people, including college grads, only know 500 kanji).

aphasiac Wrote:Anyway it has been proven effective; by him. He used the system on himself and it worked - whether you believe that or not is a separate matter..

aphasiac Wrote:so now native Japanese people are wrong; only other Japanese learners can judge him? LOL! This whole thread is utterly ridiculous..

Btw, There is a big difference between Japanese people being modest about their own abilities, and lying about some random video they've been shown on youtube.

Anyway I believe magamo said a similar thing about the video when he saw it, and I think most people on here trust his judgement; where he that guy when we need him?

bodhisamaya Wrote:How many years has he been preaching "You too can achieve fluency in 18 months"???

Not one person who has followed his advice has duplicated his supposed results!

nest0r Wrote:and whether a person with a brain can decide for themselves whether a methodology is worthwhile or not.

aphasiac Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:and whether a person with a brain can decide for themselves whether a methodology is worthwhile or not.

Bingo. People buying Silverspoon have decided it's worth it for them.

If they decide it's a scam, or if they're unhappy, or if they don't get their refunds, then lets make a thread about it.

End of discussion.