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+--- Thread: Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) (/thread-8174.html)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - loser - 2011-08-24
I'm pretty sure it's irony.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-24
I'm looking forward to the post-fluency SS, where I can pay gobs of money to read a twitter feed that just says good job every day.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-24
Hasn't everyone detected his style of humor in our "criticism"?
We all actually really love S.S. and pay for it now.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Nagareboshi - 2011-08-24
O ye, who are little of faith! There is one simple way to get the product and the guarantee that you are getting your money back if you don't trust him. You also get the whole program virtually without spending a single dollar, or whatever currency it is, and here is how it works.
If he trusts you as much as you should trust him, pay by check and postdate it to X1 + 18 months. In case the program didn't work for you, you can cancel the check before he can cash it. There is no law that prohibits doing it, and it is a fair deal for both parties, he gets the money at the end, you don't have to cancel and never see your money back, or fear to loose it.
Someone should try and see how he reacts. He has nothing to loose, and you have nothing to loose, so he should accept the deal.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-24
Cheques don't exist in Japan so he would have no way of cashing it.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Nagareboshi - 2011-08-24
Jarvik7 Wrote:Cheques don't exist in Japan so he would have no way of cashing it.For every solution there seems to be a problem.
Don't they have a foreign exchange counter in banks in Japan? Also, there surely are international banks in Japan, that take cheques. Btw. who says that he has no international account? And even if he doesn't there is still the option to use Pay-Pal as go-between. Mail it to them and they will wire once the due date is reached. At least they should.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-24
Or...he could let people pay him what they think it's worth at the end of 18 months. (Didn't Radiohead sell one of their albums that way?) That would definitely demonstrate his confidence in his method. That would create buzz. It doesn't cost him more to send more emails and he wouldn't have to deal with the supposedly onerous cancellation transactions.
nest0r Wrote:I think that's part of his viral marketing, where he says the opposite of what he means but not really, wink wink nudge nudge, to get past the immune systems of otherwise cynical marketing targets because he's so clever and funny.oh, you mean like this hilarious and clever attempt to preempt more criticism:
Khatz Wrote:“What quality products?”…Har dee HAR. HAR. Blow me AND your mother!That's one cool dude.
(btw, for you non-Brits who don't understand British self-deprecating irony, this is humour)
@J7, the prepaid post fluency twitters - haha (btw, I believe you can cash bank drafts/certified cheques from overseas - there's a fee though ~Y5000?)
@tokyostyle, thanks for the head's up. I guess I'll resume responding to those earlier posts for the next week. ;-)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Nagareboshi - 2011-08-24
Thora Wrote:Or...he could let people pay him what they think it's worth at the end of 18 months. (Didn't Radiohead sell one of their albums that way?) That would definitely demonstrate his confidence in his method. That would create buzz. It doesn't cost him more to send more emails and he wouldn't have to deal with the supposedly onerous cancellation transactions.This would most certainly be proof of trust. But in all honesty, I know pretty well what the outcome of this is, if someone lets people pay what they think is worth. A concrete example is a game called Tower of Goo. A great game! A cheap game! But ... it was copied more often then bought. And when the creators were offering an option to pay what people think it is worth, most of them were sending 1 Dollar or even less.
Khatz wants to earn a living from his product. I presume that this is his goal. By offering this he could risk to draw attention to those who take advantage and give him 50 cent in the end.
I don't say that your idea is not great, because this is not the case at all. And after the negative example from above, which seems to be quite common around the internet, there is also a positive one. The German band Die Ärzte know that all their albums exist as torrent. But they don't care, they even support this, and allow the download of their work. This way they are getting more customers even though many people download it via torrent.
But back to Silverspoon. He could go a similar route offering it for free. Meaning no access to forums, no support, only emails containing links to materials or something similar. Whoever wants the full package should sign up. But this is his decision of course. The only thing relevant for the customer is money and what to expect.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-25
aphasia Wrote:they'll still make the claim that better more relevant ways of learning are out there (with no links to them of course..).
aphasia Wrote:[Khatz] then wrote out a pretty detailed path to fluency for any beginner. That's the difference - he created a step by step plan that anyone can follow. If this is available on other sites for free, then please link them!
aphasia Wrote:This is a criticism we keep hearing; silverspoon isn't worth it, as there are better more effective methods out there. Yet no one can ever provide a single URL.
Can you post a link to a fully fleshed out detailed plan, that ends with fluency? (bare in mind these guys don't want to do the planning part - so posting links to vague methods or forums and telling them to work it out for themselves wont help)
Amset Wrote:I thought the point was that there is no such plan.I thought so too.
And so did Khatz. He insisted that there is no AJATT "system" and people shouldn't try to follow any step by step plan (bold in original). He clearly wasn't digging the submission of his disciples either:
Khatzu Wrote:I am now theorizing. I don’t know what I’m talking about. Please don’t treat me like an authority, or imagine that I think I am one. The ultimate authority on your language process is you.Take advice, take in opinions, but know that in the present day and age, your best guide is your own process of play."
Quote:Ultimately, there is no AJATT “system”, or at least I do not want there to be. I merely presented it as a system to make it easier to digest, to make it seem more concrete and less flaky, but what is ultimately more important than any detail of implementation is the idea that you can do this on your own, having fun, [...] — there are tools that can help you do this, but they’re all disposable, to be discarded the moment a truly superior alternative shows itself.
Quote:For too many people…following the instructions on this site ever more accurately has become the main course. The problem is not so much with the individual actions as with the overall subtext of submission. Which makes me wonder…
Why do we so carefully pick out clothes, food and TV channels…but not ideas?"
Quote:Did you know that whenever you ask me whether not doing something will work or not, a puppy dies of cancer? [...]The only technique I used was maximizing enjoyable Japanese exposure time such that it asymptotically approached 24 hours/day. That’s the only style I am “qualified”, as it were, to give advice on. So do your own thing. Listen to your feelings
Quote:The tools and methods I mentioned on this site were and are heavily customized to my unique preferences and situation. [...] But if they don’t work for you, that doesn’t mean you have to give up; [...]— it simply means that there’s a different path out there for you. Your task is to find or cut out that path. Only you can do this.
Quote:Go your own way, and you may discover methods you like better, that don’t involve these tools at all. Or you may struggle and stumble along and finally realize how cool these tools are. Or you may take a path somewhere down the middle, mixing and matching [I imagine a good number of people will fit in here].
Or something…I dunno…just quit asking me. Stop asking permission from people who never had the authority to give it to you in the first place; stop asking for directions from people who’ve never been there. In all likelihood, there are no directions and there is no road: you may just be the First. You’re on your own. Enjoy the freedom.
Upaya in ajatt.com comments Wrote:Some have taken “the AJATT method” to an almost religious point, and now you’re giving them more powerful tools, saying “hey, um, you don’t really have to pray twelve times a day”. I like that.I think buonaparte and others have a similar idea:
buonaparte Wrote:I was an absolute beginner and I didn't need any guides. You start here and now, see what works and improve on the way, you cannot tread anybody else's path. The only right direction is your own direction.I don't think a "fully fleshed out detailed plan to fluency" has ever been necessary or desirable. I agree with what nest0r has posted about learner autonomy. Learning Jpn takes a strong commitment, but there are many ways to get there. It's now so much easier to find out about different methods, access resources and experiment, yet people have managed to become fluent for a long time. It doesn't have to be fancy or complicated. From my 25-yr perch, I'd say the ones who succeed are typically learners who can generate their own curiosity and drive and deal with false starts and regular adjustments. I agree with Khatzu on this.
It's always been a process of exploration which involves smart sampling of what's out there. I cannot think of anyone for whom one book, one course, or one school was enough. Yet those who hand over the reins to a succession of different schools or methods expecting each one to carry them to fluency are less likely get there.
ajatt isn't really a detailed step-by-step system (I reread the TOC and articles to see if it had changed) and what's there has significant problems, in my opinion. Folks should continue to just take what they find useful and ignore the rest. Silverspoon is designed for submission.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - IceCream - 2011-08-25
and yet, people do have ups and downs and stops and starts, it's part of life. i don't think Khatz is expecting people to follow every little detail of everything he writes. Isn't it more of a frameback to build off...? At least, that's how it comes across to me.
So, you follow whatever recommendations seem interesting to you, you find links through those links, you keep up with the basic pace give or take a day here and there, and you learn Japanese.
People generally have ups and downs, and non-creative periods. At least, i do anyway. Well, i guess i've said this all before though...
For instance, when i was in Japan on the internship, my Japanese really slipped because i had a lot of other stuff to learn... not all of which i had the time to learn in Japanese. If i had someone sending me links to things every day and setting a pace to keep up with i'd be much less likely to come to a standstill.
So, from my 2 year perch, i'd say that while i have my own curiosity and drive in abundance at certain times, i'd still be further ahead if i had something like that. Pretty similar to how far i'd be behind without this forum...
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-25
Not sure I understand. Individuals obviously control whether they follow SS or not, but it's intended to be very detailed, daily instructions. (eg timebox 3 min shadowing) It's flexible in the sense that the exact combination of time, activity and media doesn't really matter. The rationale that folks are too busy to find methods and media suggests they'll only use SS.
It sounds like you would've liked emails prompting you to do something in Japanese to "stay on the wagon". For you, however, it would be just another tool in your Japanese toolbox. You didn't have time for the immersion (busy work) and the activities would be below you're level. Others SS users, however, prefer to follow the daily instructions more closely.
Real life can interfere with language learning. Thanks okay. Take breaks. Relax and resume. Having curiosity and drive doesn't mean always going 100%. I think the OCDness of ajatt has some people quite stressed out about breaking immersion or letting SRS accumulate. The process has become paramount. (And Khatz telling his young crew that any moderation is mediocrity is irresponsible, imo.) Silverspoon will probably be a source of stress for those who are overly wedded to the process.
btw, I wasn't trying to pull senior rank. :-) Some descriptions of ajatt's role in japanese learning seem to be based on misconceptions of the past. (I've read that all good learning methods are from ajatt or its sources. That all advances in language learning are made by self-study mavericks. That all non-ajatt methods are interested only in short term gains. etc.) ? Maybe I can add a different perspective from my creaky perch. :-)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - MacMiller - 2011-08-25
Jarvik7 Wrote:I'm looking forward to the post-fluency SS, where I can pay gobs of money to read a twitter feed that just says good job every day.There's a twitter for Silverspoon?
I had the idea that the program was operated through email, and through the main site.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - dtcamero - 2011-08-25
Thora I actually had the opposite concern about it. After reading a few sample 'days' it seems way too slow to learn anything. most of what I saw in the metaphorical 'twitter feed' was a list of things to do:"watch this youtube video" "chillax to these j-tunes, go walk your dog with J-audio playing in your headphones" "timebox your srs for 1 hour" "look at this j-website"... and that's kewl for the first 2 hours of the evening... but where is the ATT part of that? The timeline he laid out to get to even his watered down definition of fluency seems really aggressive given such a "chillax" study schedule.
He's taken his outline for how he achieved fluency (which required as you say a very intense regimen for 18 months), and crossed it with his concern that learning needs to be entertaining to be sustainable. The end product is this new-age "hey man, smoke this joint while we watch anime with no subs" lifestyle that probably will eventually lead to facility if it's kept up, but i think it's unlikely within his timeframe plus 2/3 months.
I respect the original writing that made up that website, but I think he's going to be on the hook for a lot of money in 18 months.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - zachandhobbes - 2011-08-26
Nagareboshi Wrote:O ye, who are little of faith! There is one simple way to get the product and the guarantee that you are getting your money back if you don't trust him. You also get the whole program virtually without spending a single dollar, or whatever currency it is, and here is how it works.Something smells fishy about this suggestion.
If he trusts you as much as you should trust him, pay by check and postdate it to X1 + 18 months. In case the program didn't work for you, you can cancel the check before he can cash it. There is no law that prohibits doing it, and it is a fair deal for both parties, he gets the money at the end, you don't have to cancel and never see your money back, or fear to loose it.
Someone should try and see how he reacts. He has nothing to loose, and you have nothing to loose, so he should accept the deal.
What if I just did that, then on the second to last day (not that I advocate going through SS anyway but...) canceled my check because I was dissatisfied? Whether SS is a good service or not, that's just scamming someone.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Nagareboshi - 2011-08-26
zachandhobbes Wrote:The offer says that a customer gets the money back if he is not satisfied. But the customer has to wait 18 months until he gets it. By his policy any customer can say that he is not satisfied and he has to return the money, even if this happens close to the end of the 18 months.Nagareboshi Wrote:...Something smells fishy about this suggestion.
What if I just did that, then on the second to last day (not that I advocate going through SS anyway but...) canceled my check because I was dissatisfied? Whether SS is a good service or not, that's just scamming someone.
With the postdated cheque both parties are in the same position. Khatz sees his money at the end and the customer pays for it. However, this way if he finds it is not for him, and this should not take 18 months, he simply cancels it. No harm is done to both parties.
There is a way to make it safer for both parties. 3 cheques, 1 dated at X1 + 6 months worth 400$, 2 dated at X1 + 12 months and 3 dated X1 + 18 months. Assuming that the total cost is 1,200$ in all. If this deal should be fair for both, Khatz should get 40% for the time the customer has used the product. But only in case this happens after 6 months. After 12 months he should get at least 60% and if someone makes it to 18 months, nobody can say that he was not satisfied. Or they can, but at least 80% of the overall sum should go his way in that case.
As it is now, the customer sends the money, and can hope to get his money back after 18 months. No matter how long he has signed up and the point he decided it isn't for him. It is all about trust from both parties.
It would be scam if someone signs up, and does not have the money on his account, and the banks usually make a background check on that, before accepting a cheque. No matter it being postdated or not.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - JimmySeal - 2011-08-26
Nagareboshi Wrote:There is a way to make it safer for both parties. 3 cheques, 1 dated at X1 + 6 months worth 400$, 2 dated at X1 + 12 months and 3 dated X1 + 18 months...Don't you think you're taking this hypothetical discussion a bit far? Especially considering that writing a postdated check with the (potential) intent to cancel it is illegal. If you're going to ask Khatz to accept postdated checks, you're better off asking him to change his refund policy.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-26
@dtcamero, Yeah, I hear you about the pace. (I'm trying to reconcile the chillax doob vibe with the "in it to win it" serious learners only marketing.) ;p It's a bit hard to tell knowing only 90/595 days. It's not uncommon for regular courses to start r-e-a-l-l-y slow then speed up once students get their bearings. I did read that some days had as much as 9 hrs.
A blogger mentioned having to modify the sequence of activities to work around his busy life and skip much of background listening. It's hard to imagine busy folks adhering to that kind of detailed daily schedule.
You mentioned proficiency:
Considering that RTK kanji are all entered by day 140, that leaves ... (oh, I just realized it's closer to 20 months than 18) ... that leaves almost 15 months to go from ziltch to reading/writing what a univ student/professional does without using any English or explicit grammar. :-)
(Again, to be clear, I'm not concerned about what particular level of fluency anyone reaches. I am concerned that folks are relying on that fluency marketing to justify the course, it's price, and the refund. That's a mistake Khatzu is relying on.)
Speaking/Skype:
I'm interested to see what results from skype sessions alone (which presumably will start late per Khatzu's interpretation of the silent period hypothesis.) (At univ, we had native tutors (in person) and online int'l language exchange, but this skype service might be great for schools where that's not available. I'd think it needs a bit of structure, though, if both are beginners. Someone should put together a series of guidelines and ideas for people to use. Less awkward and boring. More effective. )
You mentioned entertainment:
I wonder if it's even possible to trading off intensity for entertainment when nothing is understandable? Up to at least day 90, it's also apparently incredibly repetitive. Might make more sense to have the trade off be between interesting activity and interesting content. If both are dull ...
SS as a course:
btw, this copying out a page of kanji sentences before RTK? What's that about? Also, it might be more effective to do hiragana/pronunciation before shadowing b/c of segmenting (our brains apparently process the sound differently once we know the writing) and no sense practising incorrect pronunciation. Not ideal to do full RTK first, imo. Students would get restless having to wait 4 months to experience meaning in their new language. Starting with Daijirin dictionary is ridiculous. Incomprehensible input less important once sounds are familiar. etc.
This is just the start of the course. Silverspoon needs a course audit. Maybe I should sign up and send it to someone qualified. (That last word was to get a rise out of you, dtcamero. I'm practising my trolling.) ;-)
sorry, tl;dr (but at least it's about language, not interpersonal stuff...) :-)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - kainzero - 2011-08-26
a lot of ajatt seems inspired by bruce lee and his jeet kune do philosophy.
at the jkd school i go to (to take filipino martial arts instead), the way the jkd program is presented... it starts off with 6 months of basic training in various martial arts... grappling, kickboxing, boxing, etc. only once you develop those skills you get into the advanced class. in addition, as you get more advanced, you begin to understand what works for you and what doesn't and you find your own way, etc.
i think if you want to put yourself in the kind of position for teaching language, you need to know what the basics are, expose the students to the different styles of studying and the different processes and philosophies behind them, and only then will they be able to create their own curriculum. i'm pretty sure many of us have done that and are continuing to do that. and i can definitely see the need for somebody to explore this more.
i guess it's just too bad SS doesn't come close to that.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nest0r - 2011-08-26
Did Khatzumoto steal that from me too? hehe ;p (re: Thora's quotes about the “system” as described vs. Silverspoon, plus the above reference to JKD)
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=40322#pid40322
That's what I used to think, then I realized it was too late and it wasn't quite the reality with AJATT and what we're doing as individuals/here on the forum has evolved/transcended so much, I preferred being just nest0r/a RevTKer if a label was absolutely necessary, rather than something related to AJATT. Now more than ever this is true.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - tokyostyle - 2011-08-27
Thora Wrote:SS as a course:Nothing that you wrote in this paragraph is a part of SilverSpoon. You took a bunch of things that are in SilverSpoon and hyperbolized things that are absolutely not a part of it. For example the kanji copying is only kanji you already know, but you get to see them in a real Japanese book. Also, pronunciation practice starts at Day 3 and is done every single day. You also seem to think that people have to wait to "experience" Japanese, but in reality this starts at day 1 and is the cornerstone of the whole program.
btw, this copying out a page of kanji sentences before RTK? What's that about? Also, it might be more effective to do hiragana/pronunciation before shadowing b/c of segmenting (our brains apparently process the sound differently once we know the writing) and no sense practising incorrect pronunciation. Not ideal to do full RTK first, imo. Students would get restless having to wait 4 months to experience meaning in their new language. Starting with Daijirin dictionary is ridiculous. Incomprehensible input less important once sounds are familiar. etc.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-27
When are his first set of students expected to graduate?
Unless he is a complete marketing idiot, he will be throwing "Fluent in Japanese" parties every month after that first class finishes to celebrate with them and make videos of group conversations as proof of the system's effectiveness. It would certainly garner him riches and international fame within the language academic community.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - DevvaR - 2011-08-27
My assumption is that whilst some might not fit into his vague definition of "fluency", Khatz may be relying on that face that they may have advanced further than before on their own that they wouldn't ask for a refund.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-27
His fluency definition is pretty clear. He promises that you will be at the level of a high school student, which is higher than what a JLPT 1 certificate recognizes.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - DevvaR - 2011-08-27
bodhisamaya Wrote:His fluency definition is pretty clear. He promises that you will be at the level of a high school student, which is higher than what a JLPT 1 certificate recognizes.Last time I checked must have been a month ago but he did specifically state the JLPT1 part or is it implied that JLPT1 corrosponds to being at the "level of a high school students"?
I guess, regardless of whether this is the case or not, he's more or less relying on "human kindness" for want of a better word. (Browsing Koohii in the middle of the night doesn't help either) Regardless of whether someone following the program reaches JLPT1 or not, they will probably assume the program gave them the directions and motivation to reach whatever level they reached and they would not have been able to do it by themselves. Unless they're really stingy, they might not ask for a refund. And I think Khatz is relying this factor.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - dtcamero - 2011-08-27
DevvaR Wrote:My assumption is that whilst some might not fit into his vague definition of "fluency", Khatz may be relying on that face that they may have advanced further than before on their own that they wouldn't ask for a refund.Again, I respect the original writing that went into the main part of the website... but I had a similar impression re how the refund situation will be handled. (most of these people really admire Katz which helps his position) Kind of reminds me of the business model for 'ding dong' growth pill ads, in which you know the disappointed customers aren't going to ask for a refund in anywhere near the same quantity as those who ordered ;D