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+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
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+--- Thread: Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) (/thread-8174.html)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-06
Thora Wrote:For someone wanting to self study using an AJATT-type approach and needing to have it all laid out in one place, including lists of resources, equipment, media sites, and more, here's a guide for $39. John Fotheringham sells Master Japananese - Self Guided Immersion for the Passionate Language Learner for $39.What a contrast to Silverspoon! Professionalism vs Pipe-dreams
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
Also, if you want to point a friend to a site with a clear brief summary of some self-study rationale, tools and methods, Neoglitch, a member here, has 3 articles at Learn Japanese - The Truth. 1. Kanji (RTK, koohii and anki) 2. Kana. 3. Japanese (links to AJATT, Mastery). It's the AJATT "method'. Free. They'd get a great overview of the essentials without having to wade through blog or forum fluff.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-07
bhodisayama Wrote:What a contrast to Silverspoon! Professionalism vs Pipe-dreamsWell...I'm not saying anything about the quality of the content, the person, the company, its business, etc. I don't know anything. I just wanted to point out that such a book exists.
edit: Here's his promise: "I am very confident that you will enjoy Master Japanese and make massive strides in your journey toward fluency in Japanese." :-) If you're not satisfied, though, he offers a 60 day full refund. He also offers price discounts to students, etc. if you write to him and ask.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-07
The content of the service needs verified, but the website itself is very well presented. You need to edit your link. You forgot .com
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - buonaparte - 2011-08-07
I don't believe in any guides, I believe in learning materials - however poor they are, be it Stoned Rosetta, Pimplseur, Assimilar, Japanesepod101, coscom, etc.
As far as I'm concerned, all I need is a recording, a parallel etext, a mouse-over pop-up dictionary, and a reference grammar.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-07
If you are an absolute beginner, it helps to have someone who has walked the path to point you in the right direction. Also, to guide you away from scams like the above mentioned.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-07
I can sell you my handholding guide to avoiding shifty handholding guides. Only $5.99 per minute at 1-900-no-spoon.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - buonaparte - 2011-08-07
bodhisamaya Wrote:If you are an absolute beginner, it helps to have someone who has walked the path to point you in the right direction. Also, to guide you away from scams like the above mentioned.I was an absolute beginner and I didn't need any guides.
You start here and now, see what works and improve on the way, you cannot tread anybody else's path. The only right direction is your own direction.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-07
Is the point of many comments in this thread to make people save money by not paying for unnecessary stuff? If so, we should add some more interesting and long-term things like: ditching the car, moving to a cheaper and more convenient place (that is, one where you don't need a car), cancelling the cable, stopping buying comfort foods, getting rid of cellphones, cancelling all the credit cards, using a very limited wardrobe, abandoning the unnecessary tradition of gift-giving, having free hobbies instead of costly ones, getting rid of friends that make you spend money unnecessarily, not buying new stuff whenever possible, and investing all you're saving. All of these can be done without much physical effort; the biggest hurdles are mental but can be overcome.
$1000 to $5000 saved once won't make much of a difference, but deep habit changes like these will.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-07
nest0r Wrote:Looks like a nice setup you're beginning, gdaxeman. Perhaps better than a forum version (user pages/start here stuff). I'll try to ready a wiki-friendly version of my current recommendations soon-ish.Please do. That's kind of an answer to a recurring theme in these threads concerning SilverSpoon and the like: "you all say there is a better way but you never show one." And also the "digging up in threads is too time-consuming, too confusing, and too cluttered with unrelated stuff" for when searching in the forum is suggested. That's actually a good thing to have — and better yet if one of the methods is based on science.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-07
gdaxeman Wrote:Is the point of many comments in this thread to make people save money by not paying for unnecessary stuff?It is more a reaction to extremely low value-for-money and paying for stuff that is available for free without significantly more effort.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-07
Jarvik7 Wrote:Which is basically the same, at least from my perspective.gdaxeman Wrote:Is the point of many comments in this thread to make people save money by not paying for unnecessary stuff?It is more a reaction to extremely low value-for-money and paying for stuff that is available for free without significantly more effort.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-07
I had an idea:
Those people who think
the terms of Silverspoon are okay,
it's offensive to Khatzumoto to question the risk, and
we should shut up for 18-months
could personally guarantee the payment of any refund to any potential buyer who balks at the 18-month refund.
If they trust Khatzumoto and think his trustworthiness is the only issue, then they shouldn't hesitate to offer such a guarantee. (Can I put your name down first, aphasia.)
If there aren't enough people here, Khatzumoto could ask his non-Silverspoon followers to guarantee the refunds. That would be a perfect way for them to demonstrate their true belief in the system. win win.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-07
gdaxeman Wrote:Then you should be paying me for the air you're breathingJarvik7 Wrote:Which is basically the same, at least from my perspective.gdaxeman Wrote:Is the point of many comments in this thread to make people save money by not paying for unnecessary stuff?It is more a reaction to extremely low value-for-money and paying for stuff that is available for free without significantly more effort.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-07
Thora Wrote:Also, if you want to point a friend to a site with a clear brief summary of some self-study rationale, tools and methods, Neoglitch, a member here, has 3 articles at Learn Japanese - The Truth. 1. Kanji (RTK, koohii and anki) 2. Kana. 3. Japanese (links to AJATT, Mastery). It's the AJATT "method'. Free. They'd get a great overview of the essentials without having to wade through blog or forum fluff.I've read the article and it's indeed very similar to what khatzumoto says in his blog (but in a different, less humorous tone); to summarize it even further, the key is:
• Immerse yourself in Japanese using native materials;
• Do only things that are fun for you.
(Mixing those two, the conclusion is that, if not understanding what you're reading and listening is not fun for you, you're doomed. Even more when you read this: using beginners-learner material in conjunction with native material can indeed be helpful at the beginning of your journey, but you want to focus on spending time with native material as often as possible.)
Plus:
• The traditional model of language learning doesn't work;
• 6 year-old anglophone children are examples of people who know their language very well without ever studying it;
• You don't need to go to Japan, you bring Japan to wherever you are: watch movies and anime, play videogames, listen to music, listen to podcasts... all in Japanese;
• Don't try to memorize loose words and tons of grammar rules;
• Don't try to rote-memorize the Kanji and Kana through drilling;
• Don't study grammar;
• After a 6 months/1 years studying, start writing in the lang-8 website;
• To improve your speaking, get feedback from real people.
That's pretty much it. About links, if there's one thing Khatzumoto posts a lot in his Twitter account, it's links (and motivational quotes). He sure loves links...
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-07
Jarvik7 Wrote:Then you should be paying me for the air you're breathingMy point is that much of what people do, especially in developed, rich countries, is unnecessary and can be replaced by cheaper or free stuff without too much effort, as it requires mostly stopping doing certain things. It's an answer to a specific point you brought up:
Jarvik7 Wrote:It is more a reaction to ... paying for stuff that is available for free without significantly more effortI'm actually very extreme when it comes to not spending money, in some ways similar to Jacob from ERE. In the end I was carried on by the conversation and ended up exploring alternative viewpoints — it's not about criticizing other people like most seem to be doing but trying to understand them.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-07
Thanks for the summary,
Just to be clear, I'm not recommending people use those sites or their methods. (I'm actually not a fan of a sizable chunk of Khatzumoto's advice.) I'm also not suggesting it's necessary to pay $39 for a guide.
I just wanted to show that someone wanting to do Silverspoon (b/c they think it's too difficult or time consuming to figure out what to do on their own) would be able to find the required information in one place immediately for next to nothing elsewhere.
NeoGlitch's site is like a quick summary of the tools for someone not wanting to wade through the AJATT.com mess just to get an idea of what it is.
Quote:About links, if there's one thing Khatzumoto posts a lot in his Twitter account, it's links (and motivational quotes). He sure loves links...So ...then they don't need Silverspoon for quote or links either!
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - JimmySeal - 2011-08-07
@gdaxeman - I think that whatever you consider to be "not much effort," objectively, finding an alternative to Silverspoon requires far less effort than any of the things you listed.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Omoishinji - 2011-08-07
$39? I know that people want to spend as less money as possible, but that isn't what language learning is about. I understand that some are uneasy about the service and guarantee provided by AJATT, which is valid concern.
I was able to review "Learning Japanese - The truth." Free or not, it gives information that are not advantageous for some Japanese language learns.
I wish people would be honest about what a person can do to learn another language. Ask them questions about their goals, realizing that their goals aren't yours.
The problem that most people seem to have is the access to the correct resources. With Japanese there is a lot to learn, including an entirely new pronunciation system.
If a person is going to make a large investment they should take it seriously.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Neoglitch17 - 2011-08-07
Thora Wrote:Also, if you want to point a friend to a site with a clear brief summary of some self-study rationale, tools and methods, Neoglitch, a member here, has 3 articles at Learn Japanese - The Truth. 1. Kanji (RTK, koohii and anki) 2. Kana. 3. Japanese (links to AJATT, Mastery). It's the AJATT "method'. Free. They'd get a great overview of the essentials without having to wade through blog or forum fluff.Thora, I want to thank you for sharing my Squidoo lens with the RevTK community (I was wondering where the traffic boost was coming from!!
), and for considering it as a good overview of the AJATT method. Gracias!As for the whole SilverSpoon thing... well, it's a service that some people might find valuable enough to pay the $2/day. These people are folks that would rather have someone holding their hands during the process, like having a coach or tutor telling them instructions on what to do. They might prefer to do this instead of searching for resources on their own either because they are very busy in other projects, or are just plain lazy.
For these kinds of people a service like SilverSpoon is the most practical solution, but in my opinion MOST people don't need it. *I* personally wouldn't pay for SilverSpoon, because I don't need the service; I'm totally cool finding stuff by myself!
Thora, I really don't get why you were so enraged to the SilverSpoon thing. I don't think it's a SCAM at all; it's just a very specific service, a service that a few "suckers" (very busy or lazy "suckers", whatever xD) would find very, very useful. People that are ok finding Japanese media and doing their Jap stuff on their own don't need SilverSpoon. That's it.
That said, something that I do LOVE of SilverSpoon is... the advertisements.
"I'm sick of hearing about Khatzumoto and AJATT..."
"This is just a huge conspiracy to upset people..."
"Let's spoon together..."
"I want his spoon inside me!"
ROFLOLMAOMG Oh god, I think I'm going to start a thread full of "SilverSpoon quotes!" xD
gdaxeman Wrote:Mixing those two, the conclusion is that, if not understanding what you're reading and listening is not fun for you, you're doomed.Yes. If you are constantly frustrated because you can't understand anime or podcasts yet, or read the text in a videogame or a Jap website, you might end up hating Japanese altogether. Khatz... no, actually readers of AJATT talk about this here:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-to-enjoy-movies-you-dont-understand-like-a-kid
In a nutshell they establish: "Return to childhood. Focus on observing and enjoying the situations you see instead of understanding everything."... and I can totally relate to that. I wrote a comment about it in the same page. Also, accepting the challege of not understanding now, but keep doing it because it will gradually build up your understanding, is in my opinion a much better attitude to have than letting frustration take control.
Omoishinji Wrote:$39? I know that people want to spend as less money as possible, but that isn't what language learning is about...
If a person is going to make a large investment they should take it seriously.
tokyostyle Wrote:This strange and misplaced rant makes me wonder if I'm the only one who signed up to SilverSpoon just because it was an easy way to pay Khatzu back for all of the help he has already provided me for free?Somebody give this guy a cookie!!! Tokyostyle, WHAT YOU SAID!!!
I do get my $2 a day out of it but the amount of money he's asking for is so small that it amuses me that someone would make a post that is nothing more than, "Whaaaa I can't afford it so no one should be able to either!"
Why is there no outrage that universities are charging three times what Khatzu is for massively inferior products?
For the $39 Master Japanese guide you can get MUCH more useful and practical information on how to learn the language than by taking an outrageously expensive class, paying a tutor or buying freaking Rosetta Stone (more like "Rosqueta Stone"...). By the way, anybody interested in the guide can get a discount code for it by suscribing to John's newsletter :3
Learn Japanese - The Truth
And even then, you don't really HAVE to buy such guide. You can find the information contained in it on the web... but that's the thing. Doing the research is time-consuming. Trial and error is time-consuming too. By paying for the guide (or even SilverSpoon) you exchange your money for "not wasting time doing research", so that you can use that time to actually start practicing your Japanese.
Once again, thanks for reading and sharing my lens!
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nohika - 2011-08-07
Neoglitch17 Wrote:I think you're not really comparing apples to apples here, though. University professors are PhDs (generally, or masters) in their subjects doing research (most of the time; I know it's required at my university). Khatz is...none of those. Btw, I wouldn't say they're actually that much more expensive unless you go to massively inflated private universities...tokyostyle Wrote:Why is there no outrage that universities are charging three times what Khatzu is for massively inferior products?Somebody give this guy a cookie!!! Tokyostyle, WHAT YOU SAID!!!
I pay about 5k a semester for 10-18 credits worth of classes. It doesn't directly go to the professors - it goes to the university, for their research, their costs, everything. Khatz's money just goes to Khatz. I can get a refund on my tuition if I leave within like a week or two or something like that.
Khatz does not equal a PhD/MA professor that would teach a university class. He's some random dude on the internet who claims to have mastered Japanese.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - TwoMoreCharacters - 2011-08-07
In what way does the authority matter? Do the products become better just because they're endorsed and recommended by professors rather than normal people?
I don't really want to take either side here, but that came out as a bit elitist to me.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - ruiner - 2011-08-07
Yes Thora, why were you so enraged? “Whaaaa I can't afford it so no one should be able to either!” — even if you were writing that as a fake quote you attributed to someone else, nay, especially if you were putting words in someone's mouth and mischaracterizing them, that would be so incredibly douchy, I myself would feel like a douche for criticizing someone else's satire but letting that pass without comment. Wait, you didn't write that! Nevermind, just kidding.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - ruiner - 2011-08-07
TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:In what way does the authority matter? Do the products become better just because they're endorsed and recommended by professors rather than normal people?It's elitist to say that tuition for a class being taught by someone with expertise in the subject and in teaching is not comparable to a blogger experienced in rambling dispensing automated emails for thousands of dollars?
I don't really want to take either side here, but that came out as a bit elitist to me.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - ruiner - 2011-08-07
What's funny is, there is no Khatzumoto. He's just a fortune cookie machine in a Chinese warehouse by the docks.