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+--- Thread: Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) (/thread-8174.html)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - JimmySeal - 2011-08-06
I don't believe it was taken out of context. That sentence seems to very clearly mean that with Silverspoon you can (presumably) have Japanese fluency for a mere $600. The subsequent paragraphs don't do anything to clarify or adjust that statement.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nest0r - 2011-08-06
I think rather than a certified expert in weight training who spends time with you one-on-one, guiding your workouts and customizing them around you, with a professional contract and suchlike, Silverspoon seems more like a random chatty guy with six-pack abs and an infomercial promising you can have abs like his in just a few months with a booklet of workout tips he found online that he'll email one page at a time, cranking up the price per page, with a delayed refund?
I would love it if there was a form of self-study oriented virtual tutoring one could honestly relate to a personal trainer. But it would only need to be short-term (a few weeks, tops); even if someone told you otherwise (doing you a huge disservice and unlikely to be the type to offer anything of worth), you'd figure that out on your own very shortly if they were doing a good job scaffolding your self-directed study. I think the amount of time they could stretch out the service would be proportionate to how much content they could offer, in terms of tracking and customizing, sharing actual knowledge of the language in conjunction with that, access to materials, et cetera, i.e. they'd be a mobile, virtual version of a self-access language learning center. ;p
Edit: Speaking of an email bot/scripted system and the redundancy that clued people in, I have an idea that stems from my past interest in using MLO/Getting Things Done style software to help organize my self-study (see posts in the Milestone thread), with scheduled reminders and such (I think scheduled reminders have some potential integration as an Anki plugin as well, using Anki information, re: card maturity reminder plugins and such, but perhaps more elaborate). Anyway, it would be something like that, software, but with more stripped down core principles built-in (with other stuff added by the user, perhaps selected from a collaborative pool of formatted ideas?), and its suggestions are triggered by graded personal assessment grids (see the end of Chapter 6 of that Fostering Autonomy book I created a recent thread for) the self-student fills out? Could be interesting. A sort of complement to SRSing as a user adaptive, semi-automated system.
Maybe @cb4960 can make it. ;p You could probably take a general purpose GTD-style piece of software, and add an interface for adaptive scheduling according to personal assessments... the formatted (friendly to the software) content could be shared elsewhere entirely, theoretically. Hmmm...
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:I think if Khatz thought silverspoon was worth what he's asking (or anything at all) he would post a few days or a week worth of it for free.Indeed! He should have a trial period for such a long term commitment.
It appears there is mandatory brief "cooling off" period in Japan for consumer contracts. So. in effect, people could try it for 8 days to get a feel for the structure and to get the initial set up, then cancel and can an immediate refunds (ie not wait 18 months.)
It would make sense that the law would require service providers to inform customers of that right. (I don't know if it does, but I've seen that information on the contracts for 2 other online language services.)
[*edit: The cooling offer period seems to apply only to people in Japan. (See Japanese Online Institute's term of service (scroll down to text in red at 9(3)). JOI's private online lessons seem reasonable, don't they?]
Signing up for an unknown service which keeps your money for 18 months?? It's madness.
Quote:As-is he's relying on people's trust of his built-up personality for sales. People are buying in to his image, not his product.quoted for truth
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nest0r - 2011-08-06
dizmox Wrote:Haha what is he on about? The only money I've spent on Japanese was a $50 textbook at the very beginning but even that wasn't necessary.Same here. I also spent some money giving a fraction back to this site/Anki of what I feel I owe (and uh, you can't put a price on that ;p).
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
sorry about mutliple posts - I'm working and trying to squeeze this into a break.
Omoishinji Wrote:Sorry, but that was a general statement directed to some critics of the service. Shouldn't be the poster to provide the pertinent information?no worries. No, I didn't expect you to provide it. I said I wanted to ask you to if you felt it would be helpful to have that information in this thread also. :-)
Quote:However, many jurisdictions don't allow contract for more than one year.Excellent point. And trying to keep consumers' money for that long could violate Japanese laws as well. There could be several problems with the current scheme.
Are we expected to researched Japanese consumer law? Surely not. Can we trust that Khatzumoto has done so and everything is perfect? I doesn't appear so from what we've seen so far.
So...
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Omoishinji - 2011-08-06
Thora Wrote:Learning Japanese is a long time commitment. I have to agree that he should provide a sample of his service, as it seems that this service is new. However, it is the business owners' decision on how to advertise their services.Jarvik7 Wrote:I think if Khatz thought silverspoon was worth what he's asking (or anything at all) he would post a few days or a week worth of it for free.Indeed! He should have a trial period for such a long term commitment.
It appears there is mandatory brief "cooling off" period in Japan for consumer contracts. So. in effect, people could try it for 8 days to get a feel for the structure and to get the initial set up, then cancel and can an immediate refunds (ie not wait 18 months.)
It would make sense that the law would require service providers to inform customers of that right. (I don't know if it does, but I've seen that information on the contracts for 2 other online language services.
Signing up for an unknown service which keeps your money for 18 months?? It's madness.
Quote:As-is he's relying on people's trust of his built-up personality for sales. People are buying in to his image, not his product.quoted for truth
We all take language learning on faith. Outlaying time and money in order to improve our language skills.
If I am correct the core is not the 18 months, but where or not the service is suitable for the individual. I don't know about other learns of Japanese, but I am consistently addressing ways of improving my language skill. This may include a small tweak. My concern isn't the amount but the time.
From, what I seem to understand is that the owner is the service. Especially, in this case.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
zigmonty Wrote:9 pages in like 5 days... damn, that's what i get for going to work and *not* spending the whole day on internet forums...I'm trying to do both (well, not all day, obviously). Let's just say ...my sweetheart is feeling kind of neglected. :-)
Your subsequent post kind of illustrates as aspect of Khatzumoto's marketing MO. I can imagine people reading it and taking it all at face value. Or...is he serious? All of it? Which part is tongue in cheek? Is it just a matter of exaggeration or is it complete fabrication?
Khatzumoto always has the "just joking" defence, knowing full well some people will take it literally....and will pass it on such that the original humorous context is absent yech!
Just one example of how this becomes a problem is the way he provides outlandish descriptions of competing methods as blogger perceived as knowledgeable about language learning while at the same time advertising his own products. There's a bit of a conflict there. But some will suggest he's not really in business...he's just a blogger who accepts donations for stuff he gives his followers on the side. $1000 donations...
(@aphasic, I realize I'm repeating myself. You've also felt compelled repeat the same thing about 3 times now, so I'm sure you can relate. btw, stick around for a bit if you'd like... I'd like to respond to your posts, but I can't seem to catch up.) :-)
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Tori-kun - 2011-08-06
Thora Wrote:Khatzumoto always has the "just joking" defence, knowing full well some people will take it literally....and will pass it on such that the original humorous context is absent yech!Edit: Darn. It's late XD
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-06
Tori-kun Wrote:I'm a tumorous personYou should get that looked at.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-06
aphasiac Wrote:Where are people getting this $1000 figure from? I thought it was a dollar a day..so just under $600?People are actually being kind in stating that figure. It is $600 if you pay for the book of website links in advance. The interest accrued if you make daily or monthly payments is pretty steep.
Monthly: $2/day= $1,200
Daily: $2.50/day = $1,500
This needs a little organization, but it is free
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
Those were the prices before Aug 1. On Aug 1, when the limit on the number of people was lifted and refunds became impossible for 18 months, the prices doubled:
Daily: $5/d = $3000
Monthly: $4/d = $2400
Full in advance: $2/d = $1200
[edit: Plus: $150-250/m for equipment, programs, etc. (according to the SS advertisement and a blogger, who indicates that doesn't include purchase of media.) So, using $200:
Daily: $6600
Monthly: $6000
In advance: $4800]
A few bloggers initially signed up for the monthly because they a) didn't know what they were buying and b) could get an immediate refund. Tanoshimi bought the prepaid plan for $600.
edit: And Khatzumoto has indicated that prices could increase again.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nohika - 2011-08-06
Thora Wrote:edit: And Khatzumoto has indicated that prices could increase again.Sounds like something has happened and Khatz needs money...fast.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-06
Maybe he can become a father in only 9 months.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-06
That's it! I am offering Khatz $10,000 for his mailing list :O
That just might price even the most naive into thinking about this rationally. If a person is able to numb their conscience, $600/student is actually sustainable if one lives modestly, as there is no overhead. All you need is two students per month not to ask for a refund at the end of the 18 months. That would be 150,000 yen per month income. The likelihood of accomplishing this could be increased by really pushing media like yakuza, suicide pact, or martial art films. Then perhaps some would die or be incarcerated by the end of the term. Although, many will be shamed by not having reached fluency and blame themselves. Fitness gym contracts work by this business model.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - jettyke - 2011-08-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:Maybe he can become a father in only 9 months.He can become a father 2 times in 18 months!
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:Maybe he can become a father in only 9 months."It's never been done before!!" "Here, let me show you how!" "I don't charge much." ;p
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-06
jettyke Wrote:You are thinking about being a mother. If a charismatic guy came to Japan for 18 months for nothing more than sexual conquest, the potential for children would be difficult to calculateJarvik7 Wrote:Maybe he can become a father in only 9 months.He can become a father 2 times in 18 months!
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-06
I can sell you some web links showing how to make babies. Only $4000. The price may go up.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nadiatims - 2011-08-06
aphasiac Wrote:Where are people getting this $1000 figure from? I thought it was a dollar a day..so just under $600?The price at the last round was apparently $2.5 a day, so more like $1500. Then there is the additional cost to the learner in time spent doing the activities he recommends, and also the $150 or so per month he recommends spending on materials and I imagine many are spending that money.
Obviously just paying for his advice alone is not going to get you to fluency. Obviously you're supposed to actually follow his advice too so you should be sure of the quality of his advice and efficacy of his methods, because the potential for lost time is huge. If you realise half way through that his methods aren't very effective and you'll never get that time back, I think you might be somewhat annoyed that the guy is still happily earning money on your interest free loan.
"aphasiac Wrote:1) Does Silverspoon work - will the buyers end up "fluent" after 18 months?1. By his definition of fluency this is highly unlikely. I think fluency in 18 months is perhaps possible if one spent an insane amount of time daily on activities that are effective (not AJATT) though. I wouldn't even recommend following his free advice. I wrote you a long response on page 8 of this thread recommending something better.
2) Is Silverspoon good value for money (assuming that it works / buyers don't ask for refunds)
3) Is Khatz honest (will he disappear with the money or not issue refunds).
2. This is tied of course to 1. But a dollar a day for an email of resource links, bad advice and recommendations on how to spend my money. No thanks.
3. I don't think Khatz is scum but... as Thora said there are all sorts of reasons beyond his control that could make it impossible for him to repay the cash. The delayed refund really is dodgy.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
haha I think I'd rather have cb4960's baby. He's my, er, our unsung hero.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:I can sell you some web links showing how to make babies. Only $4000. The price may go up.Wait, does it include information on how to make babies in a much better, faster way than traditional methods?
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-06
There are a variety of unique positions employed which I claim increase virility but for which I have no evidence.
The price is now $4500 and you should expect to spend between $300-500 per month on liquor, supplies and love hotel charges.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - gdaxeman - 2011-08-06
nadiatims Wrote:I wouldn't even recommend following his free advice. I wrote you a long response on page 8 of this thread recommending something better.For the benefit of the community I've added your recommendations to the wiki, and called it the nadiatims method* — this is the kind of information that is good to have in a better place other than hidden under thousands of comments about something else.
* I added your username to the page because, this way, we can have multiple viewpoints offered by different users, given that study methods can differ a lot, especially in the details. I don't know how many we'll have, if we're going to have more than one, but the structure is there.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - nest0r - 2011-08-06
Looks like a nice setup you're beginning, gdaxeman. Perhaps better than a forum version (user pages/start here stuff). I'll try to ready a wiki-friendly version of my current recommendations soon-ish.
Send me $1500! (AJATT Silverspoon) - Thora - 2011-08-06
For someone wanting to self study using an AJATT-type approach and wanting to have it laid out in one place, including lists of resources, equipment, media sites, and more, here's a guide for $39. John Fotheringham sells Master Japananese - Self Guided Immersion for the Passionate Language Learner for $39.
The guide is 157 pgs and you can view the TOC (23 pgs). It seems to cover info about Japanese, methods, resources, equipment, sites, recommended media sites, etc. Has anyone used it? [edit: based on the TOC it seems like an AJATT-type approach, but I haven't actually read it]
He also has a blog at his site, started May 09, which is clearly written and includes reviews, interviews and some informative articles. It's not self-help stuff. Looking the names, I see he's linked in with the internet polyglot/language guru crowd who actively cross market. Khatzu has a guest article. I noticed this in the comments section:
John Fotheringham Wrote:Being extreme is certainly a tried and true way to increase traffic and ratings, which is why most political pundits (and some language bloggers) intentionally go too far.The common argument that folks might buy Silverspoon b/c it is too difficult and time-consuming to figure out how to start and how to find media isn't a convincing one to me if products like this exist. And isn't that what AJATT's QRG was supposed to be? The task of learning how to actually use software like anki will be the same whether SS, Master Japanese or nothing is used. And once people get their bearings, media is easy to find.
I'm having trouble seeing any purpose for Silverspoon other than daily inspirational message. for folks who want that. (Since the method is said to be from the AJATT site, it's hard to imagine any major surprises beyond the 80 days we've heard about, but we haven't seen it all.)