+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Group study (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-15.html)
+--- Thread: Help with Read Real Japanese (/thread-8107.html)
Help with Read Real Japanese - hanashitai - 2011-07-16
Hi! Tom here, studying Japanese in Uni.
Currently in vacation, I'm reading "Read Real Japanese" by Janet Ashby. I can follow the book's explanation fairly well, but there's little bits of grammar that I don't understand, so I was hoping I could get some help.
Here's the paragraph I've read today:
そんな時代のことを思い出して みると 、若い時代というのは周囲のことが全く見えていなかったのだなあ、ということがよくわかるのでした。
電車の中で円陣を組んでおしゃべりしている女子高生 にとって は、 (...)
今、自分たちがおしゃべりをしている話題こそが世の中において最も大切なこと であり、 (...)
It's really just those little nibblets I've put in bold that get me, because otherwise the book is very informative. If anyone can help, thanks!
Help with Read Real Japanese - wccrawford - 2011-07-16
にとって http://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/1910/whats-the-difference-in-usage-between-and
Help with Read Real Japanese - Zorlee - 2011-07-16
てみる ー http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/try
である ー http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/formal （であり is the masu-form of である)
にとって(は) ー basically means "for" / "regarding" etc. Your sentence will sound something like: "For / regarding the female high-school students..."
I'm sorry, I don't have time to go into details right now.
Help with Read Real Japanese - hanashitai - 2011-07-16
Hi, thanks for the swift replies folks
Ok, I think I'm grooving on てみる and にとって in regards to this essay.
But about であり - I'm getting it's the masu form (or rather stem of the masu form?), but why wouldn't it be just です? Here's the full sentence, if that's better:
今、自分たちがおしゃべりをしている話題こそが世の中において最も大切なこと であり、 自分たちこそが世界の中心、くらいに思っている。
Help with Read Real Japanese - wccrawford - 2011-07-16
Don't quote me on this, but from the little research I did, it's like です but the the sentence continues, so it's kind of like an 'and' also. It probably has some more meaning as well, but I don't know it.
Help with Read Real Japanese - marcmiddag - 2011-07-16
As far as I know であり is a literary form of です or more specifically of で as conjunction at the end of the sentence. Normally if you substitute であり with で you will be good.
Help with Read Real Japanese - Hashiriya - 2011-07-16
Make sure you separate in your head the differences between spoken and written Japanese. As long as you can read it and recognize it as a written form, there is nothing to worry about.
Help with Read Real Japanese - jettyke - 2011-07-16
marcmiddag Wrote:As far as I know であり is a literary form of です or more specifically of で as conjunction at the end of the sentence. Normally if you substitute であり with で you will be good.hmm で ありま す=です ?
Help with Read Real Japanese - marcmiddag - 2011-07-16
jettyke Wrote:interesting point jettyke.marcmiddag Wrote:As far as I know であり is a literary form of です or more specifically of で as conjunction at the end of the sentence. Normally if you substitute であり with で you will be good.hmm で ありま す=です ?
Also I checked in Tae Kim and there is a chapter (number 6) about this topic.
I citate:
Tae Kim Wrote:Formal Expressions (である、ではない)
We have already learned how to speak with your friends in casual speech, your superiors in polite speech, and your customers in honorific / humble speech. We've learned 「だ」、「です」、and 「で ございます」 to express a state of being for these different levels of politeness. There is one more type of state of being that is primarily used to state facts in a neutral, official sounding manner -
「である」
Examples
(1) 吾輩は猫である - I am a cat. (This is the title of a famous novel by 夏目漱石)
Since I'm too lazy to look up facts, let's trot on over to the Japanese version of Wikipedia (http: //ja.wikipedia.org/) and look at some random articles by clicking on 「おまかせ表示」.
(2) 混合物 (こんごうぶつ, mixture) とは、 2 種類以上の純物質が混じりあっている物質である。 (Wikipedia - 混合物 (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B7%B7%E5%90%88%E7%89%A9), July 2004) - An amalgam is a mixture of two or more pure substances.
To give you an idea of how changing the 「である」 changes the tone, I've included some fake content around that sentence.
1. 混合物は何? 混合物は、2 種類以上の純物質が混じりあっている物質だ。
2. 混合物は何ですか? 混合物は、2 種類以上の純物質が混じりあっている物質です。
3. 混合物は何でしょうか。 混合物は、2 種類以上の純物質が混じりあっている物質でございます。
4. 混合物とは? 混合物は、2 種類以上の純物質が混じりあっている物質である。
Newspaper articles are different in that the main objective is to convey current events as succinctly and quickly as possible. For this reason, 「である」 is not normally used in newspaper articles favoring 「だ」 or nothing at all. Though, in general, since newspaper articles detail events that took place or quotations, almost all sentences end in plain dictionary-form verbs anyway.
Help with Read Real Japanese - yudantaiteki - 2011-07-16
である is a literary form of だ, not です. です can be used in places where である cannot (i.e. 高いです, 分からないです).
です is a shortening of something, but there's no consensus on what it is -- one theory is であります, but it also might be でございます or で候（そうろう）.
Help with Read Real Japanese - hanashitai - 2011-08-11
Thanks everyone.!
I gather that in this case, deari is the sentence connecting version of dearu, which is the literary form of da. Makes sense.
Here's the next stuff* I'm having problems with :
１． 。。。人前で すべき でないこと。。。
２． たまに、 いい大人 なのに 電車の中で化粧をする人を見るものです。
３．。。。まだ周囲が見えていない若者 にのみ 許されているのであって、。。。
as for 1 and 3, let me know if you think the complete sentence is required for context.
Thanks in advance!
* The "next stuff" is literally on the following page, but I'm not a slow reader - I just slacked off this last month!
Help with Read Real Japanese - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-11
hanashitai Wrote:Here's the next stuff* I'm having problems with :すべきでない = するべきじゃない
１． 。。。人前で すべき でないこと。。。
Quote:２． たまに、 いい大人 なのに 電車の中で化粧をする人を見るものです。This is the のに grammar (even though...)
Quote:３．。。。まだ周囲が見えていない若者 にのみ 許されているのであって、。。。のみ is another "only" like だけ.
Help with Read Real Japanese - hanashitai - 2011-08-12
Yup, now I get it, thanks yudantaiteki