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+--- Thread: How does ような work? + Translation question (/thread-7964.html)
How does ような work? + Translation question - wonderflex - 2011-06-15
Hello all,
I've been working through Tae Kim and imputing song lyrics into my SRS. Today I was working on a song with these lines:
そっとふたりを恋へ誘うようなワンダーワード
ふたりの恋を祝うようなワンダーワード
In every translation I can find of the song they always start out with, "It's wonder word quietly inviting us to love" or "Is a kind of Wonderword that celebrates a couples love."
So I was wondering what function ような in the sentence? Is it making "誘う" translate as "like to invite?" and "祝う" translate as "like to celebrate."
Also, I don't understand why they continue to place the "wonder word" part at the beginning of the sentence when it is after the last verb. Does the ような somehow tie "wonder word" to the verb?
Thank you much, and I apologize if this in the wrong part of the forum.
How does ような work? + Translation question - wccrawford - 2011-06-15
Take my answer with a huge grain of salt...
There is no verb in that sentence fragment. it's just a noun with a modifier.
They're saying it's that kind of wonder word. A more literal translation might be:
a love-celebration-inviting wonderword
Edit: Okay, there IS a verb, but it's part of the modifier. Don't let that confuse you.
How does ような work? + Translation question - Tori-kun - 2011-06-15
wonderflex Wrote:I've been working through Tae Kim and imputing song lyrics into my SRS. Today I was working on a song with these lines:I must admit ような and all よう forms are quite my enemies, but I'd like to try my best, so correct me, if I'm wrong.
そっとふたりを恋へ誘うようなワンダーワード
ふたりの恋を祝うようなワンダーワード
My feeling tells me the phrase 誘うようなワンダーワード has to be translated roughly like:
"Wonderword, as if [like] inviting quietly to persons [where? -> へ(to, direction)] love [恋]"
Thought it's "wonderworld"? Makes somehow more sense to me, at least.
Edit: Didn't recognise the other reply. As said, it's more like a descriptive part in this sentence, I think. I guess another example could be: 人間の悲しみを感じるような犬. ("A dog, [+visual signs this pet gives us of] that it can feel the pain of a human"). Hope that's correct?
How does ような work? + Translation question - nest0r - 2011-06-15
See the top of p. 265 of Japanese the Manga Way, also, if you like (“When modifying nouns: ような”).
Example from the book: ドキドキするような映画 = “a heart-pounding-type movie” → “a movie that makes your heart pound”
How does ような work? + Translation question - wonderflex - 2011-06-15
nest0r Wrote:See the top of p. 265 of Japanese the Manga Way, also, if you like (“When modifying nouns: ような”).Thanks for the help.
Example from the book: ドキドキするような映画 = “a heart-pounding-type movie” → “a movie that makes your heart pound”
So, I could take it like this [verb]+ような+[noun] = [verb] kind of [noun]. Which would mean in my example number 2 it would be "our love's celebrating wonderword" instead of "would like to celebrate our love; wonderword."?
Oh, and if it helps, here is the song with lyrics in Japanese: http://www.jpopasia.com/play/18564/supercar/wonder-word.html
How does ような work? + Translation question - nadiatims - 2011-06-16
wonderflex Wrote:So, I could take it like this [verb]+ような+[noun] = [verb] kind of [noun]. Which would mean in my example number 2 it would be "our love's celebrating wonderword" instead of "would like to celebrate our love; wonderword."?It's More like:
a wonder word (that) seems to celebrate's the two's (our/their (depends on context)) love.
it's just a fragment of a sentence, like saying "a dog", or "an apple".
ふたりの恋を祝うような is a modifying clause describing the noun ワンダーワード. The thing to note here is that the modifying clause would occur after the noun in english and use a connecting word such as "that". Basically, in Japanese modifying clauses are placed in front of the noun just like adjectives. The difference between a modifying clause and an adjective is that an adjective is a single word and a clause can basically be a complete sentence. Because a modifying clause is a complete sentence, it must obey the japanese syntax rule of ending in a verb or copula. Hence the use of "な", which is a mid-sentence form of だ(です）.
so its ワンダーワード + the sentence ふたりの恋を祝うようだ。placed in front like an adjective.
Your translation above "our love's celebrating wonderword" sounds odd to me because it seems like a complete sentence with subject our love, verb is celebrating, and object wonderword.
This ordering of clauses is one of the major syntax differences between English and Japanese, and understanding it makes a big difference in your comprehension and output abilities.
How does ような work? + Translation question - Tzadeck - 2011-06-16
Yeah, as Nadiatims says, in Japanese you can modify a noun with a verb by putting the verb before it. In English you put the verb after it.
Examples
English: the book I will buy
日本語： 買う本
(of course, Japanese doesn't have a specific future tense like English does here)
English: the guitar I played yesterday
日本語； 昨日弾いたギター
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So, actually, you could take out the ような altogether, and the sentences would read
そっとふたりを恋へ誘うワンダーワード
A wonder word that is softly inviting the two of them into love.
ふたりの恋を祝うワンダーワード
A wonder word that is celebrating their love.
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If you add ような it's just making it less concrete and more like a metaphor:
そっとふたりを恋へ誘うようなワンダーワード
A wonder word that seems to be softly inviting the two of them into love.
ふたりの恋を祝うようなワンダーワード
A wonder word that seems to celebrate their love.
(As wccrawford says, and as you can see in the translations, these are not full sentences)
How does ような work? + Translation question - AlexandreC - 2011-06-16
Reading all the previous messages, I agree with the "seems to" translation, even though there is no context. Could also be "the kind of wonder word that...", "a wonder word that makes X do Y".
However, looking at Nestor's example:
ドキドキするような映画
it seems that ような can also indicate that the subject of the previous clause is not the noun that follows. It's obviously not the movie's heart that's pounding.
How does ような work? + Translation question - nest0r - 2011-06-16
Also from the (の)ような noun-modifying section:
カカカ、キミはまるで猫のような女だな。
(Chuckle.) You're a woman who's just like a cat, aren't you?
I would add more exposition, but since the book's fr—easy to procure online...
How does ような work? + Translation question - wccrawford - 2011-06-16
When you say a 'heart pounding movie' in English, the 'heart pounding' definitely refers to the movie... The heart itself is a person's, but the movie is what is making it pound.