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Wow. - ahibba - 2011-05-20
Israel always reminds me of Kingdom of Jerusalem, Principality of Antioch, and County of Tripoli. I am certain it will not last for 100 years more.
Wow. - IceCream - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression... after Israel yet again openly encroached Jorden's borders, crushed their defense, and took another town.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-emptive_war
The Six Day War was in response to multiple Arab nations hostile to Israel's existence calling up their reserves and massing 500,000 troops on Israel's borders, imposing a blockade, and making a whole ton of speeches about how they were going to drive the Jews into the sea and soak the land of Palestine in blood.
If Mexico suddenly decided to encroach America's border, crush a town's defense, drive out or kill the citizens there and then declare it as part of Mexico, how would you expect America to respond? (well, they might be a little more politically correct than the arab states were, but...) Wouldn't you say that Mexico was the aggressor, and not America? America would just be defending it's borders.
Of course, America is big enough to defend itself on it's own. Jorden called for other arab nations help.
Wow. - zigmonty - 2011-05-20
The traditional solution to this problem is some empire attacking and invading both sides and forcing them to be nice to each other.
I really hope that the Arab spring shows a new way forward but it seems like the problem is pretty intractable. Too many people who simply don't want peace and see their opponent as sub-human.
Then again, places like Northern Ireland are remarkably sane these days.
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
IceCream Wrote:Ummm, I don't think that's what happened in the Samu incident.kitakitsune Wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression... after Israel yet again openly encroached Jorden's borders, crushed their defense, and took another town.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-emptive_war
The Six Day War was in response to multiple Arab nations hostile to Israel's existence calling up their reserves and massing 500,000 troops on Israel's borders, imposing a blockade, and making a whole ton of speeches about how they were going to drive the Jews into the sea and soak the land of Palestine in blood.
If Mexico suddenly decided to encroach America's border, crush a town's defense, drive out or kill the citizens there and then declare it as part of Mexico, how would you expect America to respond? (well, they might be a little more politically correct than the arab states were, but...) Wouldn't you say that Mexico was the aggressor, and not America? America would just be defending it's borders.
Of course, America is big enough to defend itself on it's own. Jorden called for other arab nations help.
Jordan responded to an attack on terrorist groups by entering into an alliance whose public goal was the complete destruction of Israel and the expulsion of the evil Jew from Palestine.
Wow. - IceCream - 2011-05-20
sorry, i didn't bother to read about that incident in particular, since they generally only encroach borders on the pretext of some PLO activity to move their settlers in.
In this case, they simply flattened a bunch of the town, including schools, killed 3 citizens, and wounded 97. They did let many citizens gather in the town square though, that was nice of them.
Change the events to this, put in the names Mexico and America again, and see if it changes your intuition about how the arab states responded, and who were the aggressors any.
Wow. - liosama - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:Saying that 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled by the Jews is very inaccurate.1. We're arguing semantics here. As far as I'm concerned, expulsion is expulsion, no matter how you like to paint it. I really don't get what it is with this colonialist mentality and words?
It was far more complicated than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_ … ian_exodus
And lets not forget all the Jews who were ethnically cleansed (cleansed - not fleeing ongoing warfare) from the Middle East. While we're on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo … .80.932008
.
2. Here we go again, firstly where did I deny that Jews were ethnically cleansed? Also how in anyway does this vindicate ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by israel from Palestine? You can keep pointing fingers all you like but the injustice today is quite vivid if you ask me. Now am I expected to defend the age old myth that Arabs and Muslims are an intolerable hostile people? No I won't bother. Besides it was the west not the Arab world that massacred millions of Jews. The worst that Christians and Jews in the Arab world had to put up with was limitations on how high they could build their synagogues and churches. Anyway, it was never a question of 'tolerance' in the Arab World. Papers are coming out now regarding Mubarak's paid thugs and intentional terrorist attacks on Churches in order to maintain a sectarian divide between Muslims and Christians to paint a lovely story monochromatic story for your average Western viewer.
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
And Palestine cannot exist next to Israel because?
Wow. - Offshore - 2011-05-20
This topic sure put me a in great mood first thing in the morn'...
Wow. - liosama - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:And Palestine cannot exist next to Israel because?You can't possibly be serious? Tolerance in religious observance is one thing, terrorism, colonization, oppression, apartheid is another.
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
liosama Wrote:Jews declared independence in areas of the former Ottoman Empire where they were the majority. Everyone else in the Middle East went apeshit and went on to lose 6 wars.kitakitsune Wrote:And Palestine cannot exist next to Israel because?You can't possibly be serious? Tolerance in religious observance is one thing, terrorism, colonization, oppression, apartheid is another.
All because Arab Muslims do not believe Jews have the right to control their own political destiny.
There would be a peaceful Israel and Palestine today if Arabs were a little more tolerant.
Wow. - bodhisamaya - 2011-05-20
The more I research about it, the more disgusted I get and wish they would just kick everyone out and use the West Bank as a dump for nuclear waste.
Geographically, is this "Holy Land" they are fighting over anything more than a desert shit-hole with a lake?
Wow. - SheekuAltair - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:Jews declared independence in areas of the former Ottoman Empire where they were the majority.I've heard such things before, say it had any grain of truth; Does that mean the inhabitants have no right to their land if someone increases their numbers in their lands? Of course not, case in point what happened in the American continent, which was wrong in every sense. I've also heard that the Palestinians were nomads and didn't know what to do with their country and that the Jews came and rebuilt the land. Again, even if it was true, taking an example of Americans settlers building that country and evicting the natives, does that make it right? No. And then there's the argument that the Palestinians or the Arabs aren't tolerant and that they don't roll over and stop the violence. Well, again taking the Natives and their aggression against the settlers didn't make their right or fight for justice any less honorable, despite all the horror stories that was ever told since then.
So, whatever the outcome, I think most people will come to their senses about this, if they hadn't already.
kitakitsune Wrote:There would be a peaceful Israel and Palestine today if Arabs were a little more tolerant.Dude, this stuff would still happen even if the Jews moved to South America or Iceland. The Arabs and Jews lived peacefully before the near creation of Israel. And if the Jews created their own country in Texas, I doubt the Arab Muslims would ever care at all if there was an Israel, they'd even pop up a champagne just for once.
All because Arab Muslims do not believe Jews have the right to control their own political destiny.
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
I mean the Arabs were not tolerant enough to live - next - to a Jewish state.
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
SheekuAltair Wrote:Does that mean the inhabitants have no right to their land if someone increases their numbers in their lands?People do have the right to form nations under the principals of self-determination.
Wow. - undead_saif - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:I mean the Arabs were not tolerant enough to live - next - to a Jewish state.Edit: It's not next to it's IN from WITHIN!
Which is not supposed to exist! But it will not be too long until Israel fall apart, it's not that peaceful from the inside as it appears from the outside, and the Arabs are on their edges. As someone mentioned earlier, Muslims, Christians and Jewish lived peacefully in the past, with each having their religious rights conserved under Islamic rule.
@liosama
My greatest salutations
I've never knew that you're Palestinian, I'm Jordanian (half Palestinian) We all pray for Palestine's freedom!zigmonty Wrote:I really hope that the Arab spring shows a new way forward but it seems like the problem is pretty intractable. Too many people who simply don't want peace and see their opponent as sub-human.Arabs have done many many agreements with Israel and Israel is the one who break the rules.
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
You guys keep saying that Jews and Christians kept their rights under Islamic rule but conveniently ignore that Jews were banned from the Old City of Jerusalem under Jordanian rule and have been completely cleansed from the Arab Middle East.
Arabs in Israel enjoy full human rights and enjoy higher standards of living than any other nation in the region. Why is that so?
Wow. - kitakitsune - 2011-05-20
undead_saif Wrote:Arabs have done many many agreements with Israel and Israel is the one who break the rules.Most Arabs don't even recognize Israel's right to exist. So how can you even begin to have agreements to break?
Wow. - undead_saif - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:You guys keep saying that Jews and Christians kept their rights under Islamic rule but conveniently ignore that Jews were banned from the Old City of Jerusalem under Jordanian rule and have been completely cleansed from the Arab Middle East.It seems that both sides of this argument were informed of different historical facts, I suggest seeking the truth with objectivity.
Arabs in Israel enjoy full human rights and enjoy higher standards of living than any other nation in the region. Why is that so?
It seems if I try all day to convince you, you will not be convinced, but I believe that it's apparent who is "right" and who is "wrong".
I hope that soon things will clear up.
kitakitsune Wrote:I'll edit that with "Arab governments have done many many agreements with Israel and Israel is the one who break the rules."undead_saif Wrote:Arabs have done many many agreements with Israel and Israel is the one who break the rules.Most Arabs don't even recognize Israel's right to exist. So how can you even begin to have agreements to break?
Edit: Your really misinformed, try an honest news source!
*Out of the thread...*
Wow. - nest0r - 2011-05-20
Yes, this is all very interesting, but what do you think about gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, evolution, and atheism in this Palestine/Israel context?
Wow. - IceCream - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:You guys keep saying that Jews and Christians kept their rights under Islamic rule but conveniently ignore that Jews were banned from the Old City of Jerusalem under Jordanian rule and have been completely cleansed from the Arab Middle East.... maybe something to do with the billions of dollars of "aid" money that pour in from America every year?
Arabs in Israel enjoy full human rights and enjoy higher standards of living than any other nation in the region. Why is that so?
Which Arabs? The Christian ones? They may have full human rights, but the majority of christians in the region also are quite non-extremist, i read. Often they end up leaving (their holy land too) because of the extremist way Israel acts towards palestine, and it's apparent inability to abide by international law. The group who actually could live alongside Muslims are thereby marginalised also. Why is it, you think, that Christians and Muslims can live together, but not Jewish Israelis? imo, it has very little to do with the various religions involved, and nothing to do with any supposed anti-semitic racism, and everything to do with the history of the way the Israeli Jews have acted.
Anyway, they sure don't treat Muslim Palestinians with any form of respect for human rights. Go check out amnesty international.
And please, stop quoting things that happened before the year 1900. Shouldn't you be a little more concerned about things that are going on now, and well within your lifetime?
Anyway, didn't your parents ever teach you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?
Wow. - SheekuAltair - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:People do have the right to form nations under the principals of self-determination.Not on the expense of someone else. I'm guessing you worded it wrong, but if someone is very determined they can take away your home and property?
If you instead meant that what happened to the Jews was so sad, that anyone else's arguments (like the Palestinians) didn't mean anything. But then, two wrongs don't make it right.
IceCream Wrote:Anyway, didn't your parents ever teach you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?Hah!
Wow. - KMDES - 2011-05-20
IceCream Wrote:Anyway, didn't your parents ever teach you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?3 lefts makes a right! 8D
Wow. - Doctorhabib - 2011-05-20
kitakitsune Wrote:Arabs in Israel enjoy full human rights and enjoy higher standards of living than any other nation in the region. Why is that so?lol Im not sure Arabs even get Visa from Israel to enter it let alone ''enjoy the higher standards of living'' there.
You can't go around it people with Zionist ideals kicked everyone out and declared it a state only for people they like (aka Zionist Jews) .
The Middle east is being screwed since the 11th centrury it all started with the invasion of the Turks, then the English and the French came and colonized everything and promised ''to always be on our side'' and when it was all is over they suddenly decide to give away some of the Arab land to strangers .
AND then you still wonder why oh why Arabs suddenly stopped tolerating a Jewish state and decided to go at war with the western nations and Israel ?
Arabs Tolerated crap for 1000 years and still have to deal with crap this day on .
Wow. - kainzero - 2011-05-20
people hate other people then they tell their kids to hate each other and this whole thing just keeps spreading, i hate it.
why can't we all just get along?!?!??
KMDES Wrote:3 lefts makes a right! 8Dno, republicans aren't that important.
Wow. - KMDES - 2011-05-20
kainzero Wrote:people hate other people then they tell their kids to hate each other and this whole thing just keeps spreading, i hate it.I hate peope who hate.
why can't we all just get along?!?!??
KMDES Wrote:3 lefts makes a right! 8Dno, republicans aren't that important.
And I see what you did there. ;D