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verb conjugation, 連体形? - Printable Version

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verb conjugation, 連体形? - Vaste - 2011-05-15

Does anyone know about 連体形? How is it different from 終止形, a.k.a. (i think) ru-form or dictionary form?

Does the written form ever differ? Is the pronunciation different although the kana is the same? (I.e. different pitch accent/アクセント)?

verb conjugation, 連体形? - JimmySeal - 2011-05-15

In modern Japanese, there is no difference in conjugation or accent between the rentaikei and shushikei of verbs. They were conjugated differently in classical Japanese.

verb conjugation, 連体形? - iSoron - 2011-05-15

Vaste Wrote:Does the written form ever differ?
The copula has two different forms:

終止形 → 静かだ。
連体形 → 静かな場所。

But that's the only example I can think of...

verb conjugation, 連体形? - Vaste - 2011-05-15

It seems like what you guys say is true indeed:

wikipedia Wrote:終止形 犬が走る｡ [The dog is running.]
連體型 走ることができます｡ [It can do the "Running"-thing. = It can run.]
wikipedia Wrote:昨日あの人歩いた。 "That person walked yesterday."
あの昨日歩いた人。 "That person who walked yesterday."

[The polite masu-form is uncommon for Japanese attributive verbs.] Except for this, modern Japanese verbs have the same form whether predicative or attributive. (The only exception is the copula, which is da or desu when used predicatively and na when used attributively.) Historically, however, these had been separate forms. This is still the case in languages such as Korean and Turkish.

Classical Japanese:
hito arukiki - a person walked
arukishi hito - the person who walked


verb conjugation, 連体形? - Vaste - 2011-05-15

Now, the reason I wondered about this is this note from sinmeikai about pitch accent:
新明解国語辞典 第五版 Wrote:語のあとに、「雨[1]」「雪[2]」のように数字でその語のアクセントの山（「核」ともいう）の位置を示す。[...]アクセントが二つ以上ある場合は、「秋風[2][3]」のように並べて示す。[...]

[...]また、動詞・形容詞については、終止形と連体形を区別して、この順序に示す。「荒れる[3]：[0]」のように。

なお、アクセントを並べる順序は、わかっていれば若→老の順に、ときに、山の手風→下町風の順に並べ、年齢差も地域差もはっきりしない場合は、やむをえず多数→少数の順に並べた。[...]
Unless I'm mistaken this means:
sinmeikai Wrote:Furthermore, for verbs and i-adjective, we make a distinction between rentaikei and shushikei forms. These are marked in the order mentioned above. E.g. "荒れる[3]：[0]".
Here are some entries:
新明解国語辞典 第五版 Wrote:いただく【戴く】
[一][4]:[0]（他五）

ならべる【並べる】[4][0]:[0]

あたる【当たる】【当る】[3]:[0]

つながる【繋がる】【繋る】[4][0]:[0]

たべる【食べる】[2]:[2]

たつ【立つ】
[一][1]:[1]（自五）

おしえる【教える】ヲシヘル[4][0]:[0]
Presumably this means that these two usages are pronounced differently:

激しい選挙をすると、街が荒れる。

畑を荒らしに来るイノシシやサルが近寄れないようにするためで、牛に雑草を食べさせて農地が荒れるのを防ぐねらいもある。

(Btw, "荒れるのを" would be rentaikei, right?)

verb conjugation, 連体形? - zigmonty - 2011-05-16

brad12 Wrote:tell me one thing the verb conjuction in japanese is like english or there is any difference. I actually i am expection the brief answer.
No, there is no difference. You conjugate Japanese the exact same way as english.

verb conjugation, 連体形? - Tzadeck - 2011-05-16

zigmonty Wrote:No, there is no difference. You conjugate Japanese the exact same way as english.
Exactly. For example, the verb for 'eat' is
食べる

To conjugate to the past tense you add 'ed', so it becomes
食べるed

豚肉を食べる "I eat pork"
豚肉を食べるed "I ate pork"

verb conjugation, 連体形? - zigmonty - 2011-05-16

Tzadeck Wrote:
zigmonty Wrote:No, there is no difference. You conjugate Japanese the exact same way as english.
Exactly. For example, the verb for 'eat' is
食べる

To conjugate to the past tense you add 'ed', so it becomes
食べるed

豚肉を食べる "I eat pork"
豚肉を食べるed "I ate pork"
Kinda surprising considering Japanese and English have no known common ancestor, hey. Such a fluke.

verb conjugation, 連体形? - Vaste - 2011-05-16

So, any native speakers here that could help out? Or is someone dating an NHK announcer? Smile

新明解国語辞典 第五版 Wrote:また、動詞・形容詞については、終止形と連体形を区別して、この順序に示す。「荒れる[3]：[0]」のように。
Basically, does this imply that 荒れる in the following two sentences is pronounced differently?

Vaste Wrote:激しい選挙をすると、街が荒れる。

畑を荒らしに来るイノシシやサルが近寄れないようにするためで、牛に雑草を食べさせて農地が荒れるのを防ぐねらいもある。
And are they actually pronounced differently? Have you ever heard any word pronounced differently like that, or is it perhaps old Japanese or some weird prescriptive rule?

verb conjugation, 連体形? - yudantaiteki - 2011-05-16

Lots of Japanese words change accent when conjugated or put in sentences or before other words, so that's not surprising. (i.e. 早稲田 is 1 but in the compound 早稲田大学 it becomes 0)

verb conjugation, 連体形? - Vaste - 2011-05-17

a ppt Wrote:* 連体形と終止形は,かつて形態的に対立していた
* 中世に進行した日本語の述語全体の大規模な変化の結果,かつての終止形が消滅し,かつての連体形に終止機能が吸収された
- 四段活用動詞の場合は古代語から終止形と連体形が同形であったように見える
- 古代語では両形のアクセントの型が異なっていた
- 現代共通語では,アクセントの上でも両者の区別はない.
I'm having some trouble parsing this. Does it say that "nowadays there's no difference between 終止形 and 連體形, not even in pitch accent"?

verb conjugation, 連体形? - zigmonty - 2011-05-17

Vaste Wrote:
a ppt Wrote:* 連体形と終止形は,かつて形態的に対立していた
* 中世に進行した日本語の述語全体の大規模な変化の結果,かつての終止形が消滅し,かつての連体形に終止機能が吸収された
- 四段活用動詞の場合は古代語から終止形と連体形が同形であったように見える
- 古代語では両形のアクセントの型が異なっていた
- 現代共通語では,アクセントの上でも両者の区別はない.
I'm having some trouble parsing this. Does it say that "nowadays there's no difference between 終止形 and 連體形, not even in pitch accent"?
That's how i read it... whereas in the ancient language the pitch accent was different.

verb conjugation, 連体形? - Vaste - 2011-05-17

So why then, does 新明解 specifically distinguish between the two forms?

verb conjugation, 連体形? - LazyNomad - 2011-05-17

Vaste, your question has to do more with phonetic rules than with rentaikei. I recommend you to get 日本語の発音教室　(Introduction to Japanese Pronunciation Theory and Practice) and to read the chapter on intonation.