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+--- Thread: AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? (/thread-7756.html)
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - ta12121 - 2011-06-16
Asriel Wrote:True, he is just like us. All the things he says on his blog are common sense. Immerse, spend a lot of time in Japanese and your bound to reach fluency in it. He even suggests, work on finding your own way of learning, as everyone learns differently.Realism Wrote:I seriously don't see how this is controversial. It's almost like common sense.I'm not sure if my type of criticism is what you're talking about... but this point is exactly why I'm not too keen on it. He's a guy with good ideas. The immersion thing is obvious -- and yet people tend to guru-fy him. For coming up with ideas that are common sense...?
He's just like you and me, but some people don't see it that way.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - dtcamero - 2011-07-31
I have similar thoughts about the guru-ism, but have to say I fall heavily on the side of AJATT being a benefit to language-learners...
I personally was clueless as to how to proceed after taking a 101-level class in a local community college and following its Japanese for Busy People textbooks to their (grateful) conclusion. I asked my 日本人 prof how to continue studying on my own and she made this face that at the time I thought meant she thought I couldn't do it. In retrospect I realize she actually DIDNT KNOW short of telling me to go live in the country.
my aimless energy led me to Tofugu which led me to AJATT... at which point I was shown a path that would obviously lead to fluency given some basic work. So there's one nice thing that this guy has done, which is to lay out all the parts of an understandable path for pursuing language study to fluency starting from scratch. Antimoon does an ok job of this but Katz's is a)tailored to japanese and b)IMHO better.
the other thing that Khatz stresses that is worthwhile in my view is the centrality of enjoyment to successful study. the necessity of using media of every size and shape to make your study more enjoyable, meaning you can do it longer, will want to do it more, and eventually feel one with it like the english media we imagine as the "soundtrack of our lives" etc. The flipside of focusing on enjoyment is not getting burnt-out... being ok doing less and therefore again being able to pursue the project longer. language study is a marathon and that approach is very sensible for getting a normal person to be able to go the distance.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-01
sesshomaru Wrote:In every AJATT thread the ones who truly treat Khatz as a "language guru" are the ones saying he shouldn't be treated as a language guru. There are plenty of good threads and contributing members here which give this place value. Khatz's personality along with how he presents information are also valuable for different reasons.AJATT-fever has thankfully died out, but he was treated like a god by much of the forum a few years ago. My opinion of him at the time was downright heresy here.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - dtcamero - 2011-08-01
This place has much more value than ajatt after you've read the main site, but maybe I should add that one nice thing about ajatt+ is that there are no bitter forum trolls
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-03
Was that directed at me? Since I wasn't quoting you and I have no idea what I'd be bitter about.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - nadiatims - 2011-08-03
dtcamero Wrote:one nice thing about ajatt+ is that there are no bitter forum trollsBitter forum trolls are the price you pay for balanced information. Why not be a little open minded? You might find yourself agreeing with the trolls from time to time.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-03
It actually takes quite a while for the transition to occur from cult follower to bitter troll. My random questionnaire indicates about 18 months.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - kendo99 - 2011-08-03
its funny. I always leave khatzumoto's blog inspired, motivated or with a great new idea. I always leave the RevTK forums irritated, annoyed or frustrated at all the vitriol that gets spewed around by a small handful of people who monopolize the discussions. People who are so discouraging if you post about a new method you are having success with, or anything else that's currently out of favor here at these forums, and yet some of you want to talk about this place as if its 18th Century Paris or something: the height of rational discussion and scientific enlightenment. What I really wonder, though, is when those same people ever get around to studying any Japanese?
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-03
What was the last system being demonized?
Many Silverspoon followers found out about AJATT from a Scientology forum link it seems judging by the number of users who passionately defend it with no proof that even one disciple had been led to the Promised Land in the time promised.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-03
Well, personally I've used no techniques from this forum or any other so I don't consider it as the height or depths of anything.
I've always used the forum for only two things:
-Kill time by offering advice and opinions (which sometimes involves shooting down bad ideas)
-Getting resources to save me time (Japanese keywords deck when I was doing Heisig etc)
I do find it funny how many of the remaining Believers (many of whom seem to have low post counts) assume every AJATT critic has poor Japanese and is therefore bitter/jealous. From my perspective it seems the most vocal ones have the best Japanese here.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - kendo99 - 2011-08-03
heh, what kind of proof would be acceptable? tons of people have given testimony to their fluency, and if you read a lot of replies and stuff on his blog going back a while, you can kind of get an idea of when they started, etc. Or I can tell you about people I know currently doing AJATT who are seeing incredible progress and will most certainly be fluent within the 18 months to 2 year time frame. But of course, that's all anecdotal. I can tell you about watching my own progress unfold, and how amazed I am every day that this shit actually seems to work. But, yeah, have there been scientific studies done where people were started on an AJATT program, then 18 months later their Japanese ability was measured? LOL. No. If you have the funds to conduct such research, and you seem so convinced it doesn't work, why don't you try to actually DISPROVE it, instead of just slinging mud. If I remember correctly, that's how science works. You have a hunch a theory is wrong, and you design an experiment to disprove it.
But I wasn't even talking about AJATT specifically. I was talking about personal methods I tried to share about on here, that were attacked immediately, without any evidence that they were ineffective, and with genuine antagonism towards the suggestion there might be an easier way to do certain things. So instead of wasting my energy trying to defend those ideas from the ignorant, I used my own blog to promote them and now hundreds of people have used the same methods to learn kanji with far less effort. And the same thing has happened to other people i know, who are smart enough not to come back here for an additional dose of negativity. Maybe one day I'll get smart as well.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - jcdietz03 - 2011-08-03
Could you put your blog site in your profile? It will cause a website link to appear next to your avatar. You don't have to if you don't want to. Even if you don't want to, could you PM the site URL?
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-03
Going from zero to JLPT 1 certification would undeniable proof. If I truly believed my system was effective, I would make a failed exam all the proof one required for a refund. Not only that, I would ask that everyone promise to take the exam at the end of the 18 months prior to starting and sponsor a sushi and sake party to celebrate in style.
With this kind of publicity stunt, if what he is promising is true, it would send shock-waves through the language learning community and he would become a millionaire overnight.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - kendo99 - 2011-08-03
sure jcdietz, done
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Jarvik7 - 2011-08-03
In before "but JLPT isn't a true measure of ability"..
True, but it is a measure of MINIMUM ability. If you cannot pass it you are not adult-level fluent (JLPT1 represents middle-schooler level Japanese ability). Despite popular belief nothing in JLPT1 is obscure or unused.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - dtcamero - 2011-08-03
Ok I think I understand the problem here. You guys are defining fluent as JLPT 1 (or better) and by that standard 18 months is impossible.. therefore snake oil. I agree and I think most of the people defending AJATT would also say that level of accomplishment is extremely unlikely in 18 months.
The thing is fluent is a 'fluid' notion, and not easily pinned down (also something which should be distinguished from native speaker-ability). You guys attacking the program fall on the stricter end of the definition, Katz is using it as an advertising tool and therefore using the least strict definition: "It means functioning like an adult. Reading, talking, watching, listening and writing to people who matter to you, on subjects that matter to you. It means you can read a random newspaper article aloud and understand a random TV show and talk to a random person on the phone."
Come on that is totally doable in 18 months with a little work... we are not talking JLPT 1 here. Moreover it's not like that level of facility is not worth that amount of money to SOME people out there... granted probably few of us... but some people will pay because they find it worthwhile... so let them.
If he can't even get those results (and it's not sure he can) then he'll have a lot of money to return. And I think all the people out there saying he wont return the money are just being nasty because no one has ever come forward with anything other than an instant refund for anything they bought from him. Let one person claim ripoff first before we start accusing a businessman of planned criminal activity (prosecutable or not).
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Thora - 2011-08-03
J7's talking to himself.
(btw, I'm glad you get bored at work, J7, it's good to have you here.)
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Asriel - 2011-08-03
Yay, my quote got used
AJATT Wrote:I'd prefer it if he were a normal forum poster rather than a blogger-gone-guru...
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - nohika - 2011-08-03
Of course he has bunches of glowing reviews. Even Khatz isn't stupid enough to post bad reviews he gets sent. That's more common sense than the business "style" he attempts to use.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - nest0r - 2011-08-03
@kendo99
So it's okay for people to speak glowingly of AJATT, but not of RevTK, that would be arrogant. I feel energized and motivated by this forum. If you feel bitter from reading this forum, it's most likely because the forum allows for dissenting voices, and some of those voices, yes, like to cite actual research and concrete experience and even feel their opinion is superior to the person they're arguing with, hence their discourse. It's fun to pretend it's all about reading a single site and being motivated and doing ‘fun stuff’, and that it's all or nothing, where you can't use English, at least, not enough English to consistently disagree with Khatzumoto (else you're not learning Japanese!)
But it's really not. It's not about fun, it's about flow. The people who have more time to discuss Japanese learning in English are, quite possibly, using more efficient methods than you, methods enabled by the time they spend writing in English.
Self-studying Japanese through native media, SRSing, etc., is not AJATT. It's self-studying Japanese. I have one primary goal in our occasional discussions of AJATT. It is in destroying the possibility that learners will ever refer to their Japanese self-study as AJATT, that they'll see Khatzumoto as anything but a fellow learner. I doubt it will ever happen, unfortunately, because there'll always be a steady influx of beginners who get wrapped up in doe-eyed appreciation of Khatz's patter and conceive of the variously sourced ideas (of which the arrangement is also the content that should be variable and that is not particularly unique) as a single thing called AJATT.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - IceCream - 2011-08-03
Me too. It might start sometime when people don't feel the need to make a new thread about him whenever he does something.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Thora - 2011-08-03
The reality is he's not just another learner. He's another learner who has a following and is selling random stuff. (Not a good combo, imo.) It's natural people might want to talk about the products, the site, or the ...um...non-method. And people might have valid reasons for starting a new thread. You can't really tell people that any topic relating to AJATT.com is off limits (because some people would view it as "another anti-AJATT rant") ;p But it's a bit tricky discussing that stuff without referring to "AJATT". Let's see:
AJATT.com (the site)
Khatz (the person)
The-Collection-of-Unoriginal-Stuff-and-Self-Help-Non-Method-Formerly-Known-as-AJATT, or CUSSHNMFKAA (the non-method)
Khatzians* (learners who follow CUSSHNMFKAA... er, who follow Khatz)
QRG (a summary of CUSSHNMFKAA)
Silverspoon (the motivational version of QRG)
...
Cool, maybe we can have the occasional valid discussion about the above without veering back to the tired AJATT.com debates and without having to spend time justifying the threads.
*edit I forget who came up with Khatzians here. I like it (and it's more accurate than AJATTeers)
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - Thora - 2011-08-03
[sorry folks...a double post and too long. I'm trying to be very clear...]
>dtcamero, there was a discussion about the fluency guarantee in the "Send me $1000" thread, if you're interested. The rest of the Silverspoon fluency def'n is in this post No one will become equivalent to a native high schooler or adult professional in 18 months. Khatz knows that. By his own description, he was nowhere near that level.
dtcamero Wrote:And I think all the people out there saying he wont return the money are just being nasty [...] Let one person claim ripoff first before we start accusing a businessman of planned criminal activity (prosecutable or not).There are many reasons he might not return the money - some of which might be beyond his control. These are risks anyone thinking of give a pile of money to someone to hold should consider no matter who it is - but especially a guy in a foreign country selling stuff on the internet.
Khatz jokes about running off with all the money in his advertisement - that's why I included that particular risk my parody. He knows it's a risk any reasonable person would consider, that's why he mentions it. He would have no reason to take offence.
His humorous(?) attempt to allay concerns is irresponsible, imo, given his followers. Anyone who would think, "Of course Khatz wouldn't run off with all our money.....look, he even jokes about running away with his concubine!... hahaha...it's our buddy Khatz we're talking about...hahaha" isn't likely to consider the several possible reasons the refund might become impossible. Then to top if off, Khatz remarks that those who are willing to let him have their money for 18 months are ones really committed to achieving fluency. Just think about that for a moment. yech
It's Khatz's tactics that are nasty. He should put reasonable terms in a contract to properly deal with this risk (a major issue for any customer; but some of his followers seem rather impressionable and would miss $1000). I think his customers should insist on avoiding this risk, not crossing their fingers for 18 months in hopes that nothing strange happens, like:
AJATT bankruptcy, exchange rate dives, Khatz dies in earthquake, Khatz uses it to grow his business, Khatz invests it unwisely and loses it, bank collapse, stolen from under Khatz's bed (J7's no tax version), wife withdraws it from a joint account, it's mixed with his other assets and gets split on his divorce, his other creditors claim it, his business partner runs off with it, etc.
I looked at a couple other online language learning sites in Japanese. They had trial periods, monthly payments, detailed refund terms (which stipulated that Japan has a legally required full refund during a brief cooling off period, etc.) C'mon, Khatz...
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - bodhisamaya - 2011-08-03
Like Jarvik stated, JLPT 1 is the minimum where fluency begins. It does not include the speaking without thinking process a high school student internalizes, or ability to match the technical vocabulary of a Japanese colleague. These are claims Silverspoon makes and exceeds JLPT 1.
The reason why people get so enthusiastic about their results following Khatz is that we all overestimate our abilities after one year. There is so much progress in that initial time that no matter what path you are following, it will seem miraculous. If you were drinking a shot of sake every day during that time, you would swear by alcohol's positive effects on learning.
AJATT Silverspoon- Thought's opinions? - dtcamero - 2011-08-04
I think it's funny how people that talk the most stuff are all so up to date on what Khatz is up to, what his banners say etc... I have to imagine that means that those guys are secretly scouring his blog in the middle of the night, like some kind of guilty pleasure... reading all of his PD articles.
It's like that kid in high school who's all like "no way I don't like that girl, she's gross!" and yet is constantly stealing glances... ;D
But officially it's all because of other peoples' best interests that we're looking out for... The little guy, naïve language learner that he is... That's what we're concerned about... Uh huh riiiiiight heh