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japanese judas tree - mameha1977 - 2007-09-09
Is it me or is this kanji totally useless? Is it ever used in anything other than discussions of japanese judas trees? I fail to see the reason for its inclusion in the heisig book.
japanese judas tree - synewave - 2007-09-09
mameha1977 Wrote:Is it me or is this kanji totally useless?It's just you
Admittedly I don't actually know what the Japanese Judas tree actually looks like. But I play shogi and the kanji is used for the knight 桂馬（けいま）. Have a look at Jim Breen for more.
japanese judas tree - Katsuo - 2007-09-09
With the reading "katsura" it's used a fair bit in names (both people and places).
For example, in Kyoto there is the Katsura river and Katsura Detached Palace (桂川 Katsuragawa; 桂離宮 Katsura Rikyuu).
In Kochi (Shikoku) there's a famous beach called Katsurahama (桂浜), which I visited, by coincidence, just after learning the character.
So, could be useful for tourists.
japanese judas tree - JimmySeal - 2007-09-09
I once met someone whose surname was 桂.
It's also used in the popular sake brand name Gekkeikan 月桂冠, often a distinctive marking of a liquor store.
And I think I own a shogi board made out of katsura wood.
Lastly, it serves to reinforce the 圭 primitive, which doesn't appear a lot in RTK.
japanese judas tree - Nukemarine - 2007-09-09
JimmySeal Wrote:Lastly, it serves to reinforce the 圭 primitive, which doesn't appear a lot in RTK.Seal, Horizon, Hang all have the Ivy primitive. I'm pretty sure Heisig shows you JJT because you already know Square Jewel and Tree at that time, and JJT is on the Joyo list.
As for usefulness, until the Joyo gets a radical update to list 2000 of the most used Kanji, we're stuck needing to know some fairly rare kanji for completeness sake. In addition, I'll have no issue continuing with RTK 3 soon after RTK1.
It's odd, but due to the mnemonic I used (Judas hanging himself), it's stuck in my head for a long time. Even the Paulownia tree is stuck thanks to the Monk Paul (another disciple of Jesus).
japanese judas tree - JimmySeal - 2007-09-09
Actually 桂 isn't on the joyo list, but it is on the '97 人名用 list.
Quote:Seal, Horizon, Hang all have the Ivy primitive.Three occurrences isn't what I'd call "a lot."
japanese judas tree - duvallj - 2014-04-19
I realize this is an old topic, but for benefit of people searching the forum long after the discussion, I'd like to contribute what I have learned about this question.
Really, this is for any kanji like 桂 that has a seemingly narrow or obscure meaning, but the kanji itself is actually fairly common. As mentioned in previous posts, 桂 is really common in proper names, both of people and of places. Also, it is used in the spelling a small handful of words that have very little to do with Cercidiphyllum Japonicum. It's not uncommon for the "meaning" of a Kanji to be used in a very metaphorical or ideomatic way when it comes to actually forming a word.
When I first started trying to learn the kanji, I also did not want to waste my limited learning time on uncommon kanji. But, as I progressed, I realized the truth of Heisig's statement that "levels of kanji proficiency are simply irrelevant." If you only know 1-6th grade kanji, you can only read things written specifically to that level, which doesn't interest me very much. Before I found RTK, I started by studying the (old) JLPT 5 list, which is only 103 kanji. I struggled to know these before I arrived in Japan. The meanings are all simple and/or common, but the writing of some of these kanji is actually pretty complex as they are made up of other kanji that I didn't know at the time. Heisig's order is much better. Sure, you are going to learn some less common kanji well before you learn some of the most common, but as a whole, your time will be better spent.
I can attest to the practical uselessness of knowing only 103 kanji, even if they are really common. I mean, it's certainly nice to look at a sign or menu and say ... hey, I recognize that kanji! But in order to be functionally literate, you really do need to know the 2200 kanji that are in RTK. There is nothing sacred about this number specifically, but it is a great start as it includes all the Jouyou and a handful of the most common Jinmeiyou. Really, you can encounter all of the 2997 officially sanctioned kanji in normal everyday life. By everyday life, I mean watching TV, riding the train, filling out applications for a parking spot, trying to read the instructions for your robotic washing machine, etc.
japanese judas tree - poblequadrat - 2014-04-20
The Katsura palace was a big influence on modern architecture, so if 建築 is your thing it's nice to know this one. It's not a hard kanji to remember anyway. In fact, in some translations the keyword is "katsura", which makes you realise the kanji is actually useful to some degree.
I once saw some page on the internet where there was a list of "useless" kanji in RTK. The criterium was whether a kanji appeared less than three times in the author's Anki decks. It doesn't sound like a good criterium at all, but the worst part is that many of the kanji were primitives!
In my opinion this is like Basic Kanji book presenting you with 林業, 土木 or 力学 early on. You won't use these words much, but it doesn't hurt to know them (after all there is much talk about the insufficiency of a 10000 word vocabulary and it's these words that make the difference) and it's a good way to practise on-yomi.
japanese judas tree - john555 - 2014-04-20
Until I completely finished RTK1, I kept seeing unfamiliar kanji every time I looked through a reader for learners of Japanese. It was kind of frustrating.
Now that I've completely finished RTK1, I never see a kanji I don't recognize when looking at my readers. It was well worth the effort to do RTK1 to the end. Remember, some of the most important kanji come near the end (e.g., those that use "team of horses").
japanese judas tree - yudantaiteki - 2014-04-20
duvallj Wrote:But in order to be functionally literate, you really do need to know the 2200 kanji that are in RTK.I think the concern for a lot of learners is not "how many kanji do I need to know in the long term for reading proficiency," but rather "How many kanji do I need to learn from RTK 1 before I go on to study actual Japanese?"
There often seems to be a difficulty on this forum in understanding the difference between "You can skip this kanji for now" and "You should never learn that kanji in your life." I like the RTK Lite idea not because only 1000 kanji in RTK are useful. I like it because it gets you to studying Japanese more quickly and you can pick up kanji from reading things you're interested in rather than an arbitrary list.
(I'm also sad to hear I'm not functionally literate, I guess I better get myself a copy of RTK.)
japanese judas tree - john555 - 2014-04-20
yudantaiteki Wrote:Whatever works....duvallj Wrote:But in order to be functionally literate, you really do need to know the 2200 kanji that are in RTK.I like the RTK Lite idea not because only 1000 kanji in RTK are useful. I like it because it gets you to studying Japanese more quickly and you can pick up kanji from reading things you're interested in rather than an arbitrary list.
I know from my own experience that picking up 1,000 kanji just from reading wouldn't be possible.
It took me months to finish RTK1. However at the same time as I was studying RTK1 I was taking Japanese courses at night school (which used Japanese for Busy People, which introduces only a limited number of kanji. I'm now halfway through JBP Book Three). Now that I've finished RTK1 I'm working my way through a Japanese reader (which uses 680 kanji as stated in the introduction). It's so nice already being familiar with these 680 kanji.
japanese judas tree - john555 - 2014-04-20
duvallj Wrote:Really, you can encounter all of the 2997 officially sanctioned kanji in normal everyday life.Can you please elaborate on these "2,997 officially sanctioned kanji". I thought the "official list" had only 2,136 kanji? Thanks.
japanese judas tree - yudantaiteki - 2014-04-20
john555 Wrote:"Pick up" might have been a misleading term; I meant studying the other kanji in the context of something you want to read. I started doing this when I was around the 1000 kanji level and it worked well (I was also using Kanji in Context to learn kanji as well).yudantaiteki Wrote:Whatever works....duvallj Wrote:But in order to be functionally literate, you really do need to know the 2200 kanji that are in RTK.I like the RTK Lite idea not because only 1000 kanji in RTK are useful. I like it because it gets you to studying Japanese more quickly and you can pick up kanji from reading things you're interested in rather than an arbitrary list.
I know from my own experience that picking up 1,000 kanji just from reading wouldn't be possible.
Quote:Can you please elaborate on these "2,997 officially sanctioned kanji". I thought the "official list" had only 2,136 kanji?I assume he's referring to the Joyo list + the name kanji list.
japanese judas tree - JimmySeal - 2014-06-10
Just to weigh in on this topic 7 years later, I would be missing two characters from my mailing address if I couldn't write 桂, so I find it pretty useful. :-)
yudantaiteki Wrote:Are there characters in RTK that you don't know, or are you just twisting duvallj's words?duvallj Wrote:But in order to be functionally literate, you really do need to know the 2200 kanji that are in RTK.(I'm also sad to hear I'm not functionally literate, I guess I better get myself a copy of RTK.)
japanese judas tree - yudantaiteki - 2014-06-10
There are kanji in RTK that I don't know (meaning that when I encounter them I don't know how to pronounce them, or what they mean, or both). I was being somewhat facetious, but I really do think it's important to keep in mind that you don't need anywhere close to 2200 kanji to read something for study or even just for pleasure. I've just encountered too many people who think that until you've mastered the Joyo list, reading anything is hopeless.
japanese judas tree - Sauzer - 2014-06-10
Don't even THINK about trying to read Yotsuba if you haven't memorized all of JIS X 0208
japanese judas tree - yudantaiteki - 2014-06-10
I should start a list of kanji I encounter that I don't know so I can see if I'm accurately appraising my (lack of) ability. I looked at the first paragraphs of the featured wikipedia article today, leukemia (although I feel like Wikipedia is written at a very high level for some reason). So far I encountered the following, although I don't know how many of these are in RTK. Some of them I could guess the reading but didn't know the meaning.
疾患 (I couldn't remember the on-yomi of the second kanji)
浸潤
臍帯血
末梢血
動悸
腫瘍
罹患
japanese judas tree - EratiK - 2014-06-10
yudantaiteki Wrote:疾患 (I couldn't remember the on-yomi of the second kanji)臍, 悸, 罹 aren't in RTK
浸潤
臍帯血
末梢血
動悸
腫瘍
罹患
RTK1 疾, 患, 浸, 潤, 梢, (and of course 血, 末, 動)
RTK3 腫, 瘍,
japanese judas tree - Vempele - 2014-06-10
That page has 1001 unique kanji, 16 of which aren't in RTK1+3 (or weren't; I'm using the old list, I manually removed 瘍): 罹臍脾亢顆榮膀悸瘤漿焉頸扁歇哺澤.
終焉
亢進
膀胱
子宮頸癌
哺乳類
顆粒球コロニー
腫瘤
扁桃
間歇的
脾腫
血漿
榮 and 澤 are only seen in names, (and only in the footnotes and reference list, at that).
I knew all the kanji in yudantaiteki's post as well as 哺澤焉頸漿; didn't know the on-yomi of 腫 and 臍 (in hindsight, the latter should have been obvious).
japanese judas tree - JimmySeal - 2014-06-10
Vempele Wrote:榮 and 澤 are only seen in names, (and only in the footnotes and reference list, at that).It's debatable whether these are non-RTK kanji, given that they're old variants of RTK1 characters.
japanese judas tree - Vempele - 2014-06-10
Explain how RTK helps you get from 澤 to 沢 or from 榮 to 栄. You might be able to deduce 頸->頚 (RTK3), though.
japanese judas tree - yudantaiteki - 2014-06-10
Vempele Wrote:That page has 1001 unique kanji, 16 of which aren't in RTK1+3 (or weren't; I'm using the old list, I manually removed 瘍): 罹臍脾亢顆榮膀悸瘤漿焉頸扁歇哺澤.That's a rough list; without any context I only know 終焉 and 哺乳類, although probably I could guess the general meaning of some of the other ones if I looked through the article.
終焉
亢進
膀胱
子宮頸癌
哺乳類
顆粒球コロニー
腫瘤
扁桃
間歇的
脾腫
血漿
BTW, how did you do that count? I used to use JWPce to do that kind of character analysis but that program's obsolete now.
japanese judas tree - Vempele - 2014-06-10
I used JWPce, how is it obsolete?
japanese judas tree - EratiK - 2014-06-10
Also 哺 is in RTK1 supplement now.
japanese judas tree - yudantaiteki - 2014-06-10
Vempele Wrote:I used JWPce, how is it obsolete?I used it back when Japanese input support was limited or nonexistent on operating systems, but since Windows now has excellent support I don't use it at all anymore. It hasn't been updated in years, I don't think.