+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: problem with sentence from JSPEC (/thread-7731.html)
problem with sentence from JSPEC - kasia - 2011-04-26
I am slowly going through Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication and today I came across a sentence that looks strange to me. I am talking about chapter 18 which shows the use of "shi" particle. The sentence I have doubts about is: "課長の話は長いし、つまらなかった。" translated as "The section chief's talk was long and, what's more, it was boring". Shouldn't it be: "課長の話は長かったし、つまらなかった。"? Thank you in advance for your help!
problem with sentence from JSPEC - Hashiriya - 2011-04-26
Pretty sure it is right the way it is. The past tense is shown at the end of the sentence... You might be getting it confused with the たり grammar point
problem with sentence from JSPEC - mtrauts - 2011-04-27
The other two past tense examples in that chapter use past tense for both adjectives:
彼は有能だったし、賢明だった。
病院の看護師さんは若かったし、親切だった/親切でした。
So the sentence kasia posted is odd, but I don't know if it is an error or there is some grammatical reason that is not explained in the book.
problem with sentence from JSPEC - JimmySeal - 2011-04-27
All three of those example sentences are pretty unnatural. The -て form would be more appropriate in all three cases. I suggest skipping that section and learning about し somewhere else, because the authors don't seem to know what they're talking about.
Edit: The first sentence could probably be constructed using し, but I think the way they have it is indeed unnatural. It would be preferable to say:
課長の話は長かったし、退屈だった。
or if the implication is that Kacho's talks are always boring and yet again you were bored, you could say,
課長の話はいつも長いし、退屈だった。
and in this case, the present tense of 長い would make sense.
I still think, judging from the other examples, the authors of this book have the wrong idea about し, and were trying to say that the talk was long and boring, which you can't do with し. It has to express a cause and effect.
problem with sentence from JSPEC - Tzadeck - 2011-04-27
Japanese switches from past tense to present tense pretty easily when talking about something that happened in the past. Usually it's done to make the listener or reader feel like they're actually there at the time the event is happening, so it's used often in emotional or aesthetic situations (if a narrator is describing having been walking through a forest in the morning, he might describe it in present tense as if it were happening right now, so the reader gets an aesthetic feel for the forest). In fact, you can describe a whole story in past tense and just have a few random sentences mixed in that are present tense instead.
However, that sentence does sound a bit strange to me. I've never seen a し construction shifting tense within the space of a sentence--but I wouldn't say that it's necessarily wrong. Need some native speaker advice on this one, haha.
(We can actually talk about the past in present tense in English too, but it's less literary. For example, for some reason guys love to tell bar stories in present tense. "So last night I'm in Murphy's minding my own business, right? And my ex-girlfriend is there. She is with some big frat guy who's giving my dirty looks. I'm wondering if he's gonna try something stupid...")
problem with sentence from JSPEC - pm215 - 2011-04-27
JimmySeal Wrote:I still think, judging from the other examples, the authors of this book have the wrong idea about し, and were trying to say that the talk was long and boring, which you can't do with し. It has to express a cause and effect.し doesn't have to express cause-and-effect; it can just mean 'and', for instance 部屋にはかぎがかかっていなかったし、窓もあいていた。(an example from 日本語文型辞典, which splits the uses of し into 並列 and 理由)
problem with sentence from JSPEC - fakewookie - 2011-04-27
し can also be used to not really mean anything at all.
A: きもいよ、それ。
B: きもくないし。
problem with sentence from JSPEC - chamcham - 2011-04-27
I like to think of し as a "complaining particle". By that, I mean
you use it to list your reason for not liking/doing something.
I hear it very often in Japanese TV drama.
For example,
The Honda Accord is small and cramped and ugly, so I didn't buy it.
OR
That girl is ugly, has small boobs, is a total control freak, and so I decided to not go on a date with her.
OR
That Android tablet has terrible battery life, is very heavy, has no good apps, and so I decided to get an HP WebOS tablet instead.
So your sentence is OK. Although, I'd say that most of the time you use し you would list many reasons (not just one reason like in your example sentence).