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Kanji with "sickness" - fakewookie - 2011-04-22
By that, I mean 痔, 症, 痴, etc.
All these kanji seem to refer to ailments of some kind. But do the "inner" elements (寺 in 痔 etc.) have any kind of semantic derivation, or are they solely there as phonetic components?
知 in 痴 kind of makes sense, but I'm wondering if it's just a coincidence. Do any others actually relate to their meaning?
Kanji with "sickness" - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-22
The issue of phonetic components having semantic meaning is a complex one. Generally it seems to be believed that most, if not all, of the phonetic components were chosen for some semantic meaning as well (and that this points to etymological links in the underlying morphemes as well). But it's not always clear what the semantic meaning might have been. Dictionaries like Kanjigen often give information on these, although it's rarely helpful for learning the character since it's usually based on archaic forms or meanings. Also the phonetic parts are often substitutes for other, more complicated characters that are pronounced the same say. For purposes of learning it's probably better to just consider them as phonetics with no meaning.
As for the three kanji you listed there, here's what Kanjigen says:
痔 - The phonetic is a substitute for 峙, which here has the meaning of "rigidly stopped". (This was perhaps chosen because the character originally refers not just to hemorrhoids but any ailment of the bowels)
症 - Kanjigen does not give a semantic explanation for the phonetic.
痴 - This is a simplified or alternate version of the original character which has 疑 instead of 知. In this case 疑 represents the meaning of confusedly stopping, which has a clear relation to the "stupidity" meaning of the kanji.
Kanji with "sickness" - fakewookie - 2011-04-23
Thanks a lot. Do you have a paper version of Kanjigen, or is there a way to access it (or a similar resource) online? I'm always interested in kanji etymology. I'm interested in what the rationale behind stuff like 顳 is as well.
I guess it's not as simple as it appeared though, due to phonetic substitutes, etc.
Kanji with "sickness" - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-23
Kanjigen is on my electronic dictionary; I don't know about online resources. Henshall's book on kanji has etymologies ("A guide to remembering Japanese characters").
Kanji with "sickness" - nadiatims - 2011-04-23
I think the rational behind 顳 is simply that it's a part of the head (頁) pronounced 聶. Although the word 顳 is pronounced in kunyomi in japanese, if you type ショウ (which is surprisingly different from it's pinyin 'nie') in your ime you'll see that 顳 is a choice as are a bunch of other kanji using 聶 as a phonetic. Presumedly, 聶 was used as a phonetic for 顳 because the ears are close to the temple. Incidentally, I recently learned the reasoning behind the word こめかみ (though it's actually quite obvious once you know it). It comes from 米噛み. Place your finger on your temple and move your jaw up and down and you'll get the reasoning.
Kanji with "sickness" - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-23
Kanjigen says the phonetic was used because it means "soft" and that part of the head is soft.
Kanji with "sickness" - fakewookie - 2011-04-23
I think I'm going to have to buy an electronic dictionary...
nadiatims Wrote:Incidentally, I recently learned the reasoning behind the word こめかみ (though it's actually quite obvious once you know it). It comes from 米噛み. Place your finger on your temple and move your jaw up and down and you'll get the reasoning.I think I might finally be able to remember that word now!
Some other kanji which appear to visually depict meaning in some way:
姦
繭
眉
Kanji with "sickness" - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-23
fakewookie Wrote:姦More or less what you would expect, three women together doing indecent things. (The origins of kanji are typically not very PC...)
Quote:繭It looks like the enclosure means "hang down on both sides", so it's the thread of the insect hanging down and becoming the cocoon.
Quote:眉And this really is one of those rare characters that's essentially a pictograph.
Kanji with "sickness" - zigmonty - 2011-04-23
yudantaiteki Wrote:Kanjigen says the phonetic was used because it means "soft" and that part of the head is soft.Ok, 囁 makes even more sense now.