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+--- Thread: Understanding Monolingual Definitions (/thread-7683.html)
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - BooBooQ88 - 2011-04-19
Hey guys. So I want to start getting into doing monolingual sentences very soon (if not now). However, my problem is that when I look up the japanese definition of a word I left scratching my head. It's not because of grammar but rather vocab. I can understand the definitions just fine after I look up the definitions of the words in the definition
.I know I probably shouldn't base my progress off of his experience but I think I recall Katz writing something about going monolingual after around 500 sentences. Well... Here I stand with a deck of a little over 1000 sentences + Katz's My First Sentence Pack + a deck of 550+ vocab words and I still can't do it.
For a while my sentences have been "semi"-monolingual... meaning I put the japanese sentence on the "front" of the card and on the "back" I only add the english definitions of words that I don't know (usually 1 or 2). So far that has been going pretty well.
Anyway... Just want to ask you monoligual guys how you got over this hurdle (if you even hit it) and if you have any suggestions.
Thanks
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Morrolan - 2011-04-19
Can you give us an example? Are there too many unknown words in each sentence, or are the words themselves too difficult, or can you just not get the word-definition to stick in your head or...?
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - nadiatims - 2011-04-19
This comes up all the time. I don't know about the contents of your 1000 sentences, khatz's sentence pack or your 500+ vocab deck. But here's the thing, even if each of those 1000 sentences and Khatz's pack are designed to teach new vocab (which presumedly they aren't), then even once you've gone through the whole deck you still won't have enough vocab for high comprehension of most native materials. Monolingual dictionaries are designed for native speakers, unless you have a high enough vocabulary to easily read native texts, going monolingual is just giving yourself more work to learn each vocabulary item. If you want to get practice reading Japanese sentences, there are better places for that than your srs, ie. books, magazines, comics and so on, even textbooks. The best way to learn vocab is via clear and succinct definitions even if they are lacking in nuance. That can picked up later via reading, listening and conversation. Khatz has some good advice but this monodic stuff is nonsense. As a beginner you have to get the meaning from somewhere, forcing yourself to intuit the meaning of all words past the first 500 (presuming 1 new word per sentence) in a language you have almost no knowledge in is really inefficient.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Tzadeck - 2011-04-19
You need to know thousands and thousands of words before monolingual dictionaries can be worth your time. Go bilingual for a long time and don't worry about it. Maybe sometime when you're around JLPT N2 level you can start using monolingual dictionaries if you wish.
That's not to say you shouldn't use them at all. It's probably good to try to look up a word in a monolingual dictionary every once in a while--say once every forty words or so. If you do it for all words though, the amount of benefit it gives you will be vastly outweighed by the amount of time wasted. Once you know enough words that you can understand the definitions readily, then the benefit could outweigh the amount of time it takes. (I still do it only rarely, and I'm around JLPT N1 level)
And in the future don't take what Katz says so seriously. That guy just makes stuff up.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - thecite - 2011-04-19
I only put Japanese definitions on my cards and always look up words in a Jap dic first, but if I feel that I haven't understood it well enough I just double-check in a J-E dic. A beginner should use a J-E dic. When I first started using a Japanese dictionary I had to look up numerous words in the definition, which took extra time, but had the added advantage of making me learn lots of new words.
Hm, 600th post, I think I need to stop using this forum so much
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - bombpersons - 2011-04-19
thecite Wrote:I only put Japanese definitions on my cards and always look up words in a Jap dic first, but if I feel that I haven't understood it well enough I just double-check in a J-E dic. A beginner should use a J-E dic. When I first started using a Japanese dictionary I had to look up numerous words in the definition, which took extra time, but had the added advantage of making me learn lots of new words.This is exactly what I do. I used to try and look up all the words in the definition that I didn't understand, but it took far too long.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - mizunooto - 2011-04-19
nadiatims Wrote:this monodic stuff is nonsense.(Sorry if this is too long)
I've been doing monolingual cards for a few days. I tried to think quite hard about what I wanted out of it. At the beginning I was making circular definition cards that constantly referred me to another definition that I needed to know. More importantly, it was difficult to remember which word was where in the cards - while I knew the four words that basically had the same meaning, I couldn't produce the answer to the card (the back of the card). Actually it wasn't so bad, but it was a bit frustrating. I have deleted most of those (though I still remember the words)!
Now I am using a simpler method that I'm happy with. It goes like this:
***
Front:
Japanese Sentence (that I understand) - with readings for new words
OR
name/place name kanji (without readings)
Back:
Definition of one or two of the words in the sentence, short definitions that introduce an average of two or three new words
OR
Reading of the name/place name, and similar brief Wikipedia definition
***
It's different from the old E-J/J-E cards. There is no longer an exact "answer" - when I am much more fluent I might be able to produce one but it won't be exactly correct in most cases anyway (as would also be the case in English).
My memory of the sentence meaning (principally the new words in the sentence) is being reinforced. (Either I know the sentence because I'm converting it from my old E-J cards, or for new sentences I have the meaning courtesy of rikaichan plus grammatical knowledge)
The readings for new words are on the front of the card so at first I just read these. After a few reviews I hide them and then the goal is to produce these as part of the "answer". I might move them to the back of the card later on, but I don't think I would delete them altogether.
Then when it comes to the back of the card, I'm doing the same - Obviously I know the general meaning of the more difficult sentence on the back, because it's more or less equivalent to the front sentence, or to one of the new words from the front. The aim then is to remember the new words on the back, and to get used to the readings (which are also on the back), and next to produce those too.
I pick easy/concise sentences which do tend to use the same words, so soon I will find it easier to read definitions in Japanese, then I will be able to introduce more difficult material in the definitions.
For names/places I aim to produce the reading, any alternate kanji, and dates (for a person), where the place is, or who the person is/was and the Japanese words for what he/she is/was. The reading is the primary thing. [in future I could do production cards for names that have readings on the front and kanji on the back but that's not my priority at the moment]
SIMPLE EXAMPLES:
front
自分の人生だ
back
自分[じぶん]の 人生[じんせい]だ
自分：反射代名詞[はんしゃだいめいし]。その人自身[じしん]。おのれ。
ーーー
front
黒澤（沢）明
back
黒澤 明（くろさわ あきら、新字表記[しんじひょうき]：黒沢明、1910年3月23日 - 1998年9月6日）は、日本の映画監督[えいがかんとく]。
These are quite simple. In fact I am comfortable with them. I think this is important. It doesn't have to be painful to be effective. Quite the opposite in fact.
For each card I have several things to remember; when I can remember the easier things, I then test the more difficult. Eventually it is all familiar, i.e. I could produce the readings and meanings if each had its own card.
I hope this is helpful to anyone wanting to go for "monolingual". I'm sure I will improve my system, but at least it is working now (better than the infinite circular definitions). I expect my future cards to be easier to use, with more difficult material, and cumulatively easier to read and answer.
I feel much better with only J-J cards. I feel like I was testing my English 50% of the time before!
This is the way I'm going to do it from now on. And I also realised I can do it with my other languages! Somehow there was a belief that it's not proper learning if you can't "answer the question". But it seems unnecessarily cumbersome to put half of the material in English if you don't absolutely have to.
PS If I have any mistakes in my example cards, let me know!! Much appreciated
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Bokusenou - 2011-04-19
I only started to understand monolingual definitions after I had completed Core2k+6k, all the JLPT N2 vocabulary list, and read lots and lots of manga and novels. My advice, for what it's worth, is don't push it. It's fine to read monolingual definitions while looking up the words once in a while, for really tricky words and such, but J-E will serve you well enough most of the time. Don't worry, you'll read monolingual definitions when you're ready. Before then, you'll probably be better off using J-E.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - fakewookie - 2011-04-19
Personally, I tend to use J-J only when I feel like J-E isn't giving me the whole story. E.g., EDICT has 等身大 as "life-sized". This didn't fit the context I heard it in, so I checked a J-J dictionary, and sure enough-
(1)肖像・彫像などが人の体と同じ大きさであること。
「―の立像」
(2)飾ったり、おとしめたりしていない、ありのままの姿。
「―のアメリカ」
For nouns in particular, I tend to just find J-E more useful. E.g., if I look up 南京錠, I don't want to read in a J-J dictionary about how it's a small metal lock with a keyhole in it that's used to lock something to something else. I want to just look at a J-E dictionary and see the word "padlock". I already know what that is.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - pudding cat - 2011-04-19
fakewookie Wrote:For nouns in particular, I tend to just find J-E more useful. E.g., if I look up 南京錠, I don't want to read in a J-J dictionary about how it's a small metal lock with a keyhole in it that's used to lock something to something else. I want to just look at a J-E dictionary and see the word "padlock". I already know what that is.I agree J-J for nouns just wastes time.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - thecite - 2011-04-19
Searching nouns on Google images is a good way to avoid using English.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - erlog - 2011-04-19
I'm perplexed by people wanting to put "answers" on the backs of their cards. My cards have 2 sides. The first side is the sentence without any furigana. The back of the card is the same sentence, but with furigana.
That's it. It's very simple. Either I can pronounce every word in the sentence or I can't. Either I can understand the meaning and purpose of every word in the sentence or I can't. If I can't then I fail the card, and I review and reexamine the sentence by looking up any words or grammar points I don't know in any place I can.
I think people are wasting a lot of time constructing answers for their cards like J-E or J-J definitions or meanings of things when after the first 2 or 3 times you see the card you're never going to need to read that side of the card to "check."
I think putting specific meanings on cards shackles you to certain J-E understandings or interpretations that might not be helpful. Meanings are defined through usage, and are rarely cut and dry. This is why any good dictionary will be able to give you lots of example sentences. The way I find my understandings of certain words evolving over time is very pleasing to me. I don't think I would have that kind of slow evolution in understanding if I was so strict about definitions on my cards.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - thecite - 2011-04-19
Same, but I put Japanese definitions with furigana on the back as well. Copying and pasting a Japanese definition takes all of a few seconds, and is more convenient than searching for the meaning of a word whenever you fail it.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - pudding cat - 2011-04-19
erlog Wrote:I'm perplexed by people wanting to put "answers" on the backs of their cards. My cards have 2 sides. The first side is the sentence without any furigana. The back of the card is the same sentence, but with furigana.It depends on what you want to use Japanese for though. I like translation so knowing the meanings of words solely within a Japanese context is not really helpful for that.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Javizy - 2011-04-19
Personally, I like the English along with a few example sentences. I can quickly get a sense of the meaning and then see how it's applied in Japanese. If the sentences are good, I can get a sense of the appropriacy and see which particles or collocations it's used with.
The important thing is not to assume you can directly translate; J-E definitions tend to be little more than a guideline. Seeing the word in use should allow you to grasp the meaning more definitely. If you're still a bit unsure, then you can reach for your J-J dictionary. Going there by default is probably going to waste a lot of your time and cause a lot of frustration. I use it maybe 10% of the time, unless I want to check pitch accent.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-19
mizunooto Wrote:Personally I don't think it's nonsense to make monolingual cards, but I definitely disagree with two things you often see (or at least did see) around here -- that you should try to use only monolingual dictionaries as soon as possible, and that using J-E dictionaries is somehow an indication that you're still a beginner.nadiatims Wrote:this monodic stuff is nonsense.(Sorry if this is too long)
I've been doing monolingual cards for a few days.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - ta12121 - 2011-04-19
yudantaiteki Wrote:I believe as long as you can use both to your advantage, for learning a lot. Then it doesn't matter. There are a lot of advanced learners that still use J-E. J-J is good for understanding words that have the same meaning in english.mizunooto Wrote:Personally I don't think it's nonsense to make monolingual cards, but I definitely disagree with two things you often see (or at least did see) around here -- that you should try to use only monolingual dictionaries as soon as possible, and that using J-E dictionaries is somehow an indication that you're still a beginner.nadiatims Wrote:this monodic stuff is nonsense.(Sorry if this is too long)
I've been doing monolingual cards for a few days.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - erlog - 2011-04-19
pudding cat Wrote:It doesn't depend on what you want to use Japanese for. I also hope to become a translator. The thing you have to realize about J-E dictionaries is that they're an approximation. Just because a word kind of means the same thing as a word in a different language doesn't mean they are the same in all contexts. By using English definitions(and linking your understanding of Japanese to them) you are favoring the use of an English context in your head rather than a context that comes from Japanese.erlog Wrote:I'm perplexed by people wanting to put "answers" on the backs of their cards. My cards have 2 sides. The first side is the sentence without any furigana. The back of the card is the same sentence, but with furigana.It depends on what you want to use Japanese for though. I like translation so knowing the meanings of words solely within a Japanese context is not really helpful for that.
Translation first is about understanding. You have to be able to understand something in the context of the source language if you ever hope to be able to do it justice in English. Linking your understanding of Japanese to English or your native language holds your Japanese back because you're making your brain do far more work than it should have to.
Your thought process is more likely to be polluted like this:
Japanese -> English -> Understanding
Compared to how you understand English:
English -> Understanding
So you should seek to make your mental process be as much like the following as possible:
Japanese -> Understanding
Taking English off your cards allows you to develop the Japanese part of your brain, and allows you to work with the words in the same way you work with English words. So you don't think of Japanese words as analogues for English words in your head, you think of them as just words. You understand the meaning of them on an intuitive level the same way you understand meanings of words in English.
Now, I'm not saying you can never develop this intuition if you use a J-E dictionary or put English definitions on your cards, but that it's easier to develop this intuition if you don't. I mean I still use a J-E dictionary, but I refuse to put English on my flash cards because it pollutes the context. I don't want to be reminded of the English every time I review a card. I only want the English as a last resort.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - pudding cat - 2011-04-19
erlog Wrote:Hmm, I wouldn't say my thought process was 'polluted'... I can understand stuff in Japanese without translating into English in my head but in my own experience of practising translating having an English 'keyword' just helps speed up the process. For example I could read a sentence and understand it but then to translate it I still need to look up some words to see how to best express them in English. I like scientific translation personally so for that there's pretty much always a set way or ways to translate technical vocabulary etc. If you can't translate something using the correct terminology then the translation won't be any good.pudding cat Wrote:It doesn't depend on what you want to use Japanese for. I also hope to become a translator. The thing you have to realize about J-E dictionaries is that they're an approximation. Just because a word kind of means the same thing as a word in a different language doesn't mean they are the same in all contexts. By using English definitions(and linking your understanding of Japanese to them) you are favoring the use of an English context in your head rather than a context that comes from Japanese.erlog Wrote:I'm perplexed by people wanting to put "answers" on the backs of their cards. My cards have 2 sides. The first side is the sentence without any furigana. The back of the card is the same sentence, but with furigana.It depends on what you want to use Japanese for though. I like translation so knowing the meanings of words solely within a Japanese context is not really helpful for that.
Translation first is about understanding. You have to be able to understand something in the context of the source language if you ever hope to be able to do it justice in English. Linking your understanding of Japanese to English or your native language holds your Japanese back because you're making your brain do far more work than it should have to.
Your thought process is more likely to be polluted like this:
Japanese -> English -> Understanding
Compared to how you understand English:
English -> Understanding
So you should seek to make your mental process be as much like the following as possible:
Japanese -> Understanding
Taking English off your cards allows you to develop the Japanese part of your brain, and allows you to work with the words in the same way you work with English words. So you don't think of Japanese words as analogues for English words in your head, you think of them as just words. You understand the meaning of them on an intuitive level the same way you understand meanings of words in English.
Now, I'm not saying you can never develop this intuition if you use a J-E dictionary or put English definitions on your cards, but that it's easier to develop this intuition if you don't. I mean I still use a J-E dictionary, but I refuse to put English on my flash cards because it pollutes the context. I don't want to be reminded of the English every time I review a card. I only want the English as a last resort.
For flashcards I usually pick a few phrases demonstrating different uses of the word and then have translation and reading on the other side. Then I check I can read the phrases and roughly translate them. It's kind of the same thing my denshi jisho has, translations and then example sentences.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Cranks - 2011-04-19
I've seen this a lot with English learners. It's, in my opinion, not worth going monolingual until you hit about N2 or even a mid-N1 (upper intermediate/lower advanced). The necessary vocabulary, grammar and understanding needed to read a native level dictionary is sufficient that even intermediate learners of Japanese will have trouble. That said, if you use a more accessible dictionary like sanseido (sp.) then it is possible to do it earlier (nothing like a simple learner's dictionary-like website like that to bridge the gap).
Overall, I think peoples' opinions here are a mixture of try it or give it a miss. Personally, I'm saying "why not?". You could very easily produce 10 cards in a separate deck based on one of the models given above and do a test run to see if you can manage it. (If it does then maybe tweak and do all your new cards in this format; if not then scrap it.)
Whatever you decide, you have my support! Do your best!
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Cranks - 2011-04-19
@Pudding Cat & Erlog
I think both have their place in learning Japanese, just at different stages. I also think that the sheer bulk of context you get from reading and listening to Japanese material (given such material was comprehensible) and in speaking and interacting with native speakers or other learners of a similar level is often sufficient for learners to understand the words they are learning to a high enough degree (hopefully, all of which are taken from these materials and from recordings of the learners interactions with others - recording people is a great way to review and build vocabulary and is a valuable simple to implement tool that requires little more than a tape recorder, a cell phone or PC recording software).
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - zigmonty - 2011-04-19
erlog Wrote:Your thought process is more likely to be polluted like this:Nope. Nice theory, but that's just not how it worked for me. Every word i've consciously learned, i've learned through a J->E anki card. I can read Japanese without an English voice playing in my head. I understand the words in Japanese.
Japanese -> English -> Understanding
The superiority of J->E definitions goes beyond simple concrete nouns. When i'm looking up words in anything technical, i don't want a japanese layman's description of the term. I just want the equivalent english, as these things tend to just 1-1 map. I didn't spend years at uni learning all this vocabulary to chuck it just because i now have to work in a different language. I'll take the initial extra level of indirection to be able to reuse the understanding i already have, thanks.
The only time J->E definitions are a bit off is when it's one of the vaguer terms that's hard to translate (not that these are rare...). These are the kind of words for which the japanese meaning in a J->J dictionary tends to be less helpful too. The only way to really learn these words is exposure.
Btw, the example given of 等身大 is EDICT (a free dictionary...) missing a meaning, not a flaw of J->E dictionaries in general.
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - sutekiiii - 2011-05-02
I've been doing the same as you, but I've got like 3000+ sentences now. I still have not switched, due to fear but I think I'll be doing this now.
I think you should give it a try, for a month or so. And if you still find it too hard, then maybe you're not ready for the switch. Also I think at the start, whatever you start doing, at the start its hard but you will gradually get accustomed to it.
A tip, if you don't know the particular meaning of the word, you can google it, maybe do a J>E just to make sure what you read in the Monolingual dictionary corresponds with the English definition. Or maybe just search for the words where you know the meaning and work from there
Anyways hope it helps and good luck ~
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - ta12121 - 2011-05-02
Don't rush the monolingual part. One thing I've noticed about doing monolingual is: you may still need to search up what it means in English. As long as you keep the answer field fully monolingual, you'll be fine(I.e. search up what is giving you problems in english and keep the field fully monolingual)
Understanding Monolingual Definitions - Tori-kun - 2011-05-02
sutekiiii Wrote:I've been doing the same as you, but I've got like 3000+ sentences now. I still have not switched, due to fear but I think I'll be doing this now.Talking of core6k (mine has somehow just 5881 and not full 6000, but anyway), I do know about 2800 cards. Apart of that I'm working with other decks so I had the same thought as you. I think J-J monolingual dictionaries can help boosting one's comprehension skills in terms of reading (definitions.. which can be a bit vague sometimes). I just tried. Added a field "mono" in one of my anki deck and created 3 cards monolingual and tried to understand them.
It worked. If it didn't, I deleted them. Just try it out and see for yourself how you're feeling. Don't rush it and have fun. If you feel like the time you need to grasp the whole content of the card in japanese is too much/too much slowing you down in your progress, kick them out. Good luck.