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+--- Thread: 手伝う vs. 助ける (/thread-7679.html)
手伝う vs. 助ける - Tori-kun - 2011-04-17
Hey folks,
just skipped through my UBJG book and discovered this here:
手伝う "to help to do something"
私はいつも皿洗いを手伝います。
私はいつも母の手伝をします。
ｘ 私はいつも母を手伝います。 (why does the second example is correct and this one isn't? and how to remember that?)
助ける "to save s.o. or to help someone"
私は池に落ちた子を助けた。 Rescued the child from drowning. This example is clear, but..
ｘ 私は皿洗いを助けます。 <- this
ｘ 私は母(の皿洗い)を助けます。 <- and this one aren't. "Helping mum (someone)..."
Thanks for the answers!
手伝う vs. 助ける - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-17
Tori-kun Wrote:Hey folks,手伝う can take a task as an object, but not a person.
just skipped through my UBJG book and discovered this here:
手伝う "to help to do something"
私はいつも皿洗いを手伝います。
私はいつも母の手伝をします。
ｘ 私はいつも母を手伝います。 (why does the second example is correct and this one isn't? and how to remember that?)
Quote:助ける "to save s.o. or to help someone"助ける has to be used with something more serious than washing dishes. Think of it as more "save" than "help", although you do hear 助かった！ ("You saved me!") used with more minor things.
私は池に落ちた子を助けた。 Rescued the child from drowning. This example is clear, but..
ｘ 私は皿洗いを助けます。 <- this
ｘ 私は母(の皿洗い)を助けます。 <- and this one aren't. "Helping mum (someone)..."
Also 助ける generally has to take a person (or organization, etc.) as an object, not a task. So the second sentence is wrong even if you replace 皿洗い with something more serious.
(However, 助ける can take a nominalized sentence as an object and thus refer to a situation -- something like 財布を取り戻すのを助けた)
手伝う vs. 助ける - Asriel - 2011-04-17
yudan pretty much covered it all thing out of the way, but here's one thing to think about:
母を手伝う
To understand it better, let's use your translation of "to help to do X." Having 母を手伝う, you're saying "to help to do mother."
手伝う is almost like "assist", whereas 助ける is more of a "rescue" kind of feeling. If you had:
皿洗いを助けます --> to 'rescue' the dishwashing?
You could say 母を助けます if she was in danger, or needed some sort of help.
There are other cases like...if you were really busy at work, and your boss gives you another big assignment, but your friend says they'll do it instead...then they have 助ける'd you. If they just say that you'll do it together, then they're 手伝う-ing you.
as an aside: this was my 1111th post. That's interesting.
手伝う vs. 助ける - Tori-kun - 2011-04-17
Thanks yudantaiteki and Asriel (congratz to your 1111th post ;P) - both of you are so helpful! How come, you always know these answers? I'm slightly envious writing yudan's answer just like that into my book with a pencil beside that box.
手伝う vs. 助ける - LazyNomad - 2011-04-17
I guess OP needs to learn more about particles and to think more about concepts of grammar in different languages. The answers are pretty simple, but at the same time they should be discovered, rather than explained.
As a side note, I would like to recommend a book "Making Sense of Japanese Grammar", as it will surely help to conceptualize Japanese language.
手伝う vs. 助ける - yudantaiteki - 2011-04-17
Tori-kun Wrote:How come, you always know these answers?If you study long enough and use the language, you eventually know these things. When I was still a beginner I asked questions like this too and got helpful answers from people who were in my position now (or more advanced).
手伝う vs. 助ける - kainzero - 2011-04-17
Asriel Wrote:To understand it better, let's use your translation of "to help to do X." Having 母を手伝う, you're saying "to help to do mother."oh god
incest at its worst
手伝う vs. 助ける - Tori-kun - 2011-04-17
@LazyNomad Hm, this book looks good. I had lent it once from the library, and want to buy it know. Seems to be rather cheap, but unfortunately I will never use amazon again, as I had a really bad experience with importing from UK/US/JP..
a) took long b) didn't arrive at all c) lost money (well not *that* much, but hey)
手伝う vs. 助ける - Nagareboshi - 2011-04-17
Tori-kun Wrote:Hey folks,Change the second sentence like this and it will be correct:
just skipped through my UBJG book and discovered this here:
手伝う "to help to do something"
私はいつも皿洗いを手伝います。
私はいつも母の手伝をします。
ｘ 私はいつも母を手伝います。 (why does the second example is correct and this one isn't? and how to remember that?)
私はいつも母に皿洗いを手伝います。
I always help my mother wash the dishes.
The rule is: [I help] Person に [with] task を ...
Can you tell now why the first sentence is correct, and the second in its original form is not?
手伝う vs. 助ける - wildweathel - 2011-04-17
I see it this way.
助ける is an action you can do to a person, like 殴る. There's not a lot of "cooperation" on the other person's part. So, を.
But with 話す or 手伝う both people work together. に indicates the "other person"/相手
The exact usage varies from verb to verb and can be irregular. But eventually, you really do develop an intuitive sense that, for example, 支える is in the first group and 提供する is in the second, even if both correspond to the English "support."
That intuitive sense is an example of inductive reasoning. Induction requires a bunch of examples, so just keep learning vocabulary and usage and eventually these rules start to fall into place.
手伝う vs. 助ける - Tori-kun - 2011-04-18
Well, as far as I understood it now, 助ける describes more something like Asriel said: a person who is being rescued by me. ("to help, to save someone's life, to rescue someone")
Whereas 手伝う simply means "to help to do something", therefore the latter sentence I posted - which was greatly commented on by Kainzero ;P - makes absolutely no sense. Sometimes I need such drastical comments haha.