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+--- Thread: The Japanese Have a Word for It! (/thread-7646.html)
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - rigol - 2011-04-12
I stumbled upon this one yesterday:
布団蒸し - to bury a person under a pile of futon in fun
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - dat5h - 2011-04-12
I learned this the other day on 教えてgoo. 喘ぎ声, edict lists it as 'heavy breathing', but I think that definition loses a common image that the word implies. Let's just say it involves showing her your O-face
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - Bokusenou - 2011-04-12
pudding cat Wrote:I like 木漏れ日I like 木漏れ日 too. ^-^ It's one of the prettiest Japanese words I know.
I guess I'll list a few others...
空耳: It means mishearing, but it's esspecially used when a person hears something in a language they don't know, and mishears it a a language they do know, or the practice of adding misheard lyrics to a video, such as the well known Japanese numa numa video. Tamori even has a 空耳アワー on one of his shows. (Youtube it if you want to laugh!)
ツンデレ: This one is more of otaku slang, but I'll put it here too.
(made from つんつん and でれでれ) It means a a character who starts out aloof/hating another character but gradually comes to love them. I wish English had a word like this, as that character type has been around forever. (When I was reading Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, I kept thinking that "Darcy is such a tsundere" XD).
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - Jarvik7 - 2011-04-12
つんでれ is more like someone with mood swings (at times つんつん, at other times でれでれ) or otherwise hides their affection behind a cool/mean exterior, not someone who grows affectionate over time.
It is of otaku origins, but it's used in mainstream among youths quite a bit more than 絶対領域.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - Bokusenou - 2011-04-12
Jarvik7 Wrote:つんでれ is more like someone with mood swings (at times つんつん, at other times でれでれ) or otherwise hides their affection behind a cool/mean exterior, not someone who grows affectionate over time.Hmm, Japanese Wikipedia says:「初め（物語開始段階）はツンツンしている（=敵対的）が、何かのきっかけでデレデレ状態に変化する（変化の速度は場合による）」、あるいは「普段はツンと澄ました態度を取るが、ある条件下では特定の人物に対しデレデレといちゃつく」、もしくは「好意を持った人物に対し、デレッとした態度を取らないように自らを律し、ツンとした態度で天邪鬼に接する」ような人物、またその性格・様子をさす。
And EDICT says: (adj,n) (1) being on the surface sharp and sarcastic (tsuntsun) but underneath lovestruck and fawning (deredere)
(2) normally being sharp but at some prompt suddenly becoming lovestruck
hot-cold personality type
So I guess it's more like starting out つんつん, but then due to the effect of later events, they become でれでれ, among other meanings like someone who hides their affections under a tough exterior, as you said.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - vonPeterhof - 2011-04-12
As of now it seems that Jarvik's definition is more commonly accepted in the fandom, although apparently some people object.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - Javizy - 2011-04-12
Bokusenou Wrote:So I guess it's more like starting out つんつん, but then due to the effect of later events, they become でれでれ, among other meanings like someone who hides their affections under a tough exterior, as you said.My friend used it about me because I was jokingly using some harsh expressions occasionally, so I think Jarvik's explanation is pretty accurate, at least for one of its usages.
quincy Wrote:サクラ - a girl in a bar/club that gets you to buy her a drink then leaves. I actually couldn't think of an English equivalent to this but I feel like there should be one.One or two English words come to mind for this one. サクラ is used for bogus women on dating sites as well. Companies pay people to talk dirty to the members to keep them paying up. I actually know somebody who had a job like this.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - mezbup - 2011-04-12
腐女子 - a girl who is very enthusiastic about comics featuring male homoeroticism
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - aphasiac - 2011-04-12
Oh yeh, "rotten girl" - there's the character Ogiue in the anime 'Geshiken' who acts like that (all the others use that term).
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - cntrational - 2011-04-12
yudantaiteki Wrote:You shouldn't get the idea that Japanese is unique in having these strange words, though. Any language has seemingly bizarre words.Very true. I doubt many languages have words like defenestrate or suffixes like -orama and -o-matic
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - vonPeterhof - 2011-04-12
cntrational Wrote:Very true. I doubt many languages have words like defenestrate or suffixes like -orama and -o-maticAll European languages have the word defenestrate, or at least defenestration, thanks to this event.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - cntrational - 2011-04-12
True, but it's still a funny word.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - fakewookie - 2011-04-12
cntrational Wrote:Metrosexualyudantaiteki Wrote:You shouldn't get the idea that Japanese is unique in having these strange words, though. Any language has seemingly bizarre words.Very true. I doubt many languages have words like defenestrate or suffixes like -orama and -o-matic
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - mcaruso - 2011-04-13
Just came across this on jisho.org:
旅子, "travelling male homosexual prostitute"
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - kapalama - 2011-04-14
mcaruso Wrote:Just came across this on jisho.org:jisho.org, like WWJDIC, rikaichan etc all are user contribution dictionaries, which means foreigners put things in there that Japanese simply would not recognize, because the foreigner saw it in some archaic text.
旅子, "travelling male homosexual prostitute"
Japanese Wikipedia also gets a pretty heavy dose of non-native Japanese speakers wanting to write in Japanese and is therefore a much less reliable source of what counts as actual Japanese than English Wikipedia does for English. Especially when it comes to anything anime, or AKB48/Morning Musume related which are all written by non-native fanatics.
Believe half of what you read, none of what you hear, and minus one-half of what you read on the internet, especially when it comes to Japan.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - dat5h - 2011-04-14
kapalama Wrote:jisho.org, like WWJDIC, rikaichan etc all are user contribution dictionaries, which means foreigners put things in there that Japanese simply would not recognize, because the foreigner saw it in some archaic text.I have actually been thinking that some of these obscure references in edict have indeed been from archaic texts or non-native misunderstanding like you suggest. Alternatively, I have also considered the possibility that some of these words were indeed translated correctly, but are representative of a single literary source. Some of these words may actually be fanciful/poetic words created by some obscure unknown author once upon a time that can only be understood/used in the context set by said author. If only edict had references for some of these words that don't exist in any of my 国語 dictionaries, I think we'd learn a thing or two.
kapalama Wrote:Japanese Wikipedia also gets a pretty heavy dose of non-native Japanese speakers wanting to write in Japanese and is therefore a much less reliable source of what counts as actual Japanese than English Wikipedia does for English. Especially when it comes to anything anime, or AKB48/Morning Musume related which are all written by non-native fanatics.lol brilliant analysis. The internet is a great way to share information, but for the same reason, it also helps spread the misinformation
Believe half of what you read, none of what you hear, and minus one-half of what you read on the internet, especially when it comes to Japan.
(I never considered this tidbit about Japanese Wikipedia by the way, cheers to the much deserved skepticism)
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - nest0r - 2011-04-14
Reviewing the submission section for WWWJDIC, it seems like new entries are well vetted from a variety of angles. I think in this sense non-native isn't as important as organized submission methodology, relative transparency, and users not simply using random words because they found them in the dictionary.
You can always check here if you're feeling doubtful:
http://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/entr.py?svc=jmdict&sid=&e=1042182
Full help file for submissions: http://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/edhelp.py?svc=jmdict
References to 旅子 come from Kojien and Daijirin, it seems, and it's labeled as ‘archaic’, so.
You can see daily updates here: http://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/databaseupdates.html
Interesting to look at specific dates and see how events influence submissions: http://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/entr.py?svc=jmdict&sid=&q=1484530.1
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - louischa - 2011-04-14
I found a word similar to the traveling homo that was mentioned:
蔭間 (かげま) cross-dressing homosexual prostitute (late Edo period). For those who needed ASSISTANCE (ahem) during a TIME INTERVAL...
Apparently homo prostitution was quite popular during that period... ???????
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - Asriel - 2011-04-14
louischa Wrote:蔭間 (かげま) cross-dressing homosexual prostitute (late Edo period). For those who needed ASSISTANCE (ahem) during a TIME INTERVAL...lol
For a nsfw in a historical, artsy way, here's an artist rendition of what a 陰間 might look like:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/陰間
Note they didn't just take male customers...I wonder how this played out with the women?
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - nest0r - 2011-04-14
@louischa
I found myself wincing at your comment, due to abbreviational connotations. If unwitting (and not a product of bias), here is an explanation of why I found your comment off-putting:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homo
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - pudding cat - 2011-04-14
louischa Wrote:I found a word similar to the traveling homo that was mentioned:Historically in various cultures homosexuality wasn't uncommon, neither was prostitution.
蔭間 (かげま) cross-dressing homosexual prostitute (late Edo period). For those who needed ASSISTANCE (ahem) during a TIME INTERVAL...
Apparently homo prostitution was quite popular during that period... ???????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution#History
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - louischa - 2011-04-14
@ nest0r,
No offence meant. 英語 not being my maternal language, I am often
unaware of the latest non-PC connotations. In French, "homo" is
not derogatory (as far as I know! - but I am an old fart, so what
do I know!). As you know, "homo" is the Greek word for "same".
Not that there is anything wrong with "sameness"...
@ pudding cat: very true. For instance, one of my Korean friends
(a woman) once went to a bathhouse in Seoul, and was greeted
with the words: "Is it for sale or is it to buy?" I found that an
interesting sentence...
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - fakewookie - 2011-04-14
kapalama Wrote:There's some truth to what you're saying but I think that this is quite some hyperbole.mcaruso Wrote:Just came across this on jisho.org:jisho.org, like WWJDIC, rikaichan etc all are user contribution dictionaries, which means foreigners put things in there that Japanese simply would not recognize, because the foreigner saw it in some archaic text.
旅子, "travelling male homosexual prostitute"
Japanese Wikipedia also gets a pretty heavy dose of non-native Japanese speakers wanting to write in Japanese and is therefore a much less reliable source of what counts as actual Japanese than English Wikipedia does for English. Especially when it comes to anything anime, or AKB48/Morning Musume related which are all written by non-native fanatics.
Believe half of what you read, none of what you hear, and minus one-half of what you read on the internet, especially when it comes to Japan.
Personally, I have more faith in the creators of EDICT than that- I don't think they're adding these words without any research, though there are inaccuracies. But just because Japanese people wouldn't recognise it doesn't mean it isn't a valid word. I'm sure that most English speakers wouldn't recognise the word syzygy, or have any idea what a solidus is.
As for Wikipedia, I think you could probably count the number of non-native AKB48/Morning Musume fanatics who have studied Japanese for long enough to be able to even attempt to contribute to those pages, and do, on one hand. Articles relating to Japan on English Wikipedia however, are often rife with obviously non-native English.
I agree with scepticism when it comes to non-Japanese produced information about Japan though. Everyone wants to have their opinion on "Japan is like this", or "Japanese people think that", but it's a country where (relatively) very few people have ever been there, know people from there, speak the language or really know that much about it at all.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - jcdietz03 - 2011-04-14
Like Wikipedia, anyone can contribute to EDICT.
Like Wikipedia, EDICT is not a democracy. The editors have all the power, moreso than Wikipedia. However, the editors will usually accept your entry if it's reasonable.
SIDE NOTE: The EDICT editor accepted my entry for 最弱! IT NOW GLOSSES WITH RIKAICHAN! AND IT'S ALL THANKS TO ME!!! The editor rejected my suggestion that it is a common word. The editor is probably right on that one.
SIDE NOTE 2: The EDICT editor also accepted my suggestion to add 5-o'clock shadow to the list of definitions for 無精ひげ.
The Japanese Have a Word for It! - kapalama - 2011-04-14
fakewookie Wrote:Personally, I have more faith in the creators of EDICT than that- I don't think they're adding these words without any research, though there are inaccuracies. But just because Japanese people wouldn't recognise it doesn't mean it isn't a valid word. I'm sure that most English speakers wouldn't recognise the word syzygy, or have any idea what a solidus is.I am not criticizing EDICT for this. If they did not do what they do, no one would. But many of their entries are simply parroting what Spahn or Halpern put in their dictionaries. Someone submits it to EDICT because they found it in Spahn or Halpern, and to check it the EDICT guys go to a dictionary written by a non-native speaker (Spahn or Halpern) to 'double-check'.
As for Wikipedia, I think you could probably count the number of non-native AKB48/Morning Musume fanatics who have studied Japanese for long enough to be able to even attempt to contribute to those pages, and do, on one hand. Articles relating to Japan on English Wikipedia however, are often rife with obviously non-native English.
I agree with scepticism when it comes to non-Japanese produced information about Japan though. Everyone wants to have their opinion on "Japan is like this", or "Japanese people think that", but it's a country where (relatively) very few people have ever been there, know people from there, speak the language or really know that much about it at all.
That's not 'double-checking', that's boot-strapping a definition into existence. The only reason it gets submitted is because it is in Spahn or Halpern, and the only checking the editors do is to see if it is in Spahn or Halpern. Nothing wrong with that, but it hardly counts as 'checking'.
As far as the anime/otaku influence, you simply have to be kidding. No one, and I mean no one, I have ever met studying Japanese did not come to it from a Japanese culture fetish angle, except for those who came to it for an Asian women fetish angle. That's not a criticism of people who turn an interest of things Japanese into language study. Why would anyone study the Japanese language if they had no interest in Japanese things? Note that I am not criticizing that. The people who who wrote the original texts about Japan were all guys with 'yellow fever', from Lafcadio Hearn on through Alex Kerr. At least now people are studying Japanese for some other reason than they developed a fetish for the women. Again, not that there is anything wrong with either motivation.
But to say that the foreigners who have Japanese skills are sui generis from the AKB48 fans is missing something. Most American AKB48 fans do not have the skills to edit J wikipedia, but all of the Americans writing on J Wikipedia have an otaku streak, or Asian women fetish, or something of the sort.
(important side note: Mormons have mad Japanese skills, and no interest in Japan. But since they have no interest in Japan, they would not be on Wikipedia.)