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Culture, fact, or feeling? - JimmySeal - 2007-09-02
I think code-switching is the appropriate linguistic term.
I make it a point to pidginize my English and Japanese as little as I can. You won't see me referring to my cell phone as a "keitai" or referring to a rice ball as an "onigiri" while speaking English.
But I'm sure I have inserted Japanese words into my speech once in a blue moon when it seemed more apt than any English I could have provided. At the moment, I can't think of a word that could have conveyed the sense of "偉い" any better, but maybe that's just because I've been here for too long and can't speak English anymore :p
Culture, fact, or feeling? - dilandau23 - 2007-09-02
yorkii Wrote:the UK is much more multicultural that japanI would even argue that the concept of multiculturalism is Western in its origin.
wrightak Wrote:Very interesting. I don't think my post contributed to the discussion your looking for, sorry about that. So am I right in saying that the question you'd like to address is "What determines what you need to know?"No your post contributed. My question is more like "What determines what others think you should know, and is there validity in statements suggesting you limit yourself?"
JimmySeal Wrote:You don't need to know that word," as much as, "You don't need to know that word, yet."That is a great way to put it. I like that you picked up the two way street aspect of the whole thing. I also get a lot of questions from the one motivated Japanese English teacher who is always working to improve his English. He looks up words on ALC all the time and often asks for clarification of some off the wall phrases.
reslove Wrote:Perhaps dilandau should have told them that real Japanese people express things more reservedly, and that in order to behave like proper Japanese person, they should have prefaced their sentence with "I think it's ruten" or "It looks like ruten" or "Is it ruten?"? ;-)This one made me laugh, thanks!
Quote:It is quite common to use Japanese words in an English conversation in Japan if they are more efficient and one knows that the listening party will understand. It's a simple conservation of energy. It is also trivial to switch to Japanese input if you have your system configured correctly, and romaji is best avoided where possible.I think that it would be encouraged to use かな and 漢字 wherever possible on a forum dedicated to Japanese. Please don't back out of the conversation. On a side note, I love マクドナルド and don't like that you called it "cheap and unhealthy". They have a salad on the menu, I saw it when I ordered something else!
Is code-switching bad? I thought it was also a good way to enforce vocab for myself in situations where I can't go full on Japanese.
And now back to the main topic, Jimmy already addressed this but what about the rest of you, do you find yourselves telling Japanese that they don't need this or that in English? What are your motivations if so?
Culture, fact, or feeling? - sheetz - 2007-09-02
I don't think I've ever told anyone it was unnecessary to learn anything in particular concerning the English language. If they ask me a question I tell them the answer to the best of my knowledge. Otherwise I consider it none of my business what that person wants to learn and if they went to the trouble of asking me then they must have their reasons.
Culture, fact, or feeling? - dingomick - 2007-09-02
My brother was here and annoyed me by telling my friends and girlfriend obscure slang. It would have been funny had it been just a few times (trying to explain slang is a funny process to think through), but he used it continuously and expected me to explain it to my bewildered friends, which is doubly difficult since it's so often culturally unique. I kept telling they not to worry about it, that it wasn't useful, but they of course wanted to know.
For example, he really got a kick out of "d-bag", as in, "That guy is a d-bag". So I had to explain what a douche bag was, and then explain that a lot of slang gets abbreviated, then explain that it's an insult since it associates someone with something gross.
This reminds me of a point I forgot to make in my first comment that someone else mentioned: the Japanese are loathe to explain sexual slang or insults from Japanese, even as they use them right in front of you. Why do you think that is? Do they feel it reflects badly on them if they teach foreigners slang? They can't be embaressed by it because they use it... The only Japanese I find who are willingly to explain sexual slang and insults are those who have spent time overseas (and sometimes those who haven't if you get them drunk enough).
The only reason I tell people not to worry about something in English is because I know how hard it will be to explain, and it's usually in the middle of a conversation. Lazy, I know. (>_<)
wrightak Wrote:That was worded poorly. What I meant was that the Japanese know that Japanese, kanji specifically, is difficult since they themselves struggle with it. And being a homogenous society, the vast majority rarely if ever interact with any foreigner with mastery of it, usually just those with poor usage. Thus they combine the two and make the poor leap of logic and assume Japanese is too difficult for foreigners to learn. People do it all over the world in a variety of awful ways, "I always see black people on the news in jail; all blacks are criminals", "All the Japanese restaurants in my town serve sushi; the Japanese must eat sushi every day", "All the pictures I see of the Middle East are war zones; every place in the Middle East is a war zone," etc.dingomick Wrote:I think the scenario is a prevalent cultural charateristic. Because of lack of exposure in an almost completely homogenous society, the Japanese tend to have a general mindset that aspects of their language and culture are too difficult for foreigners to learn.Could you expand on this? It's not something that I would have said. I don't follow how a homogeneous society implies Japanese people thinking that their language is too difficult for foreigners to learn.
Culture, fact, or feeling? - yorkii - 2007-09-02
dilandau23 Wrote:I agree, just using the UK as an example.yorkii Wrote:the UK is much more multicultural that japanI would even argue that the concept of multiculturalism is Western in its origin.
Culture, fact, or feeling? - wrightak - 2007-09-02
resolve Wrote:While I'm sure you had the best intentions, I'm offended by you associating my usage of the Japanese language with a cheap and unhealthy burger joint, and it discourages me from posting further.My use of the MacDonalds analogy was a little flippant and I apologise for it. I had no idea that it would offend and it is never my intention to offend anyone. I also was not talking about your use of the Japanese language specifically, and it was not personal at all. I also switch to Japanese in my English speech but I think the topic of whether it's a good idea or not is quite interesting. I also think it's related to the subject of whether you should use English in your flashcards or not, which I thought you had an interest in and is why I brought it up.
Culture, fact, or feeling? - Megaqwerty - 2007-09-03
Off-topic, but no one should be using romanji on this forum. Well, maybe in circumstances where kana would be too vague, but every time someone clicks "Post reply", they see the sign showing that Kana is on...
Returning to the main topic, it's probably like the use of 丁寧語 (this is the right term, right?) in beginner texts. You don't truly need to know causal speech if you're just sight-seeing as polite language will always do, so why bother learning plain forms?
Think about how many resources there are that are designed for native English speakers to improve their own English skills. How aggressively are these marketed? The only commercials I see are on Youtube, but, even so, there are ads for virtually every DS Kanji app out there, of which there are several trillion. I shouldn't even be saying this: I'm talking to guys who live in Japan. What are the pass rates of the highest level of the Kanken?
Culture, fact, or feeling? - resolve - 2007-09-03
wrightak: I was overreacting anyway - I was just a bit fed up with all the debate about the merits (or pitfalls) of mixing languages, since I feel like I have to constantly defend my position. Nevermind :-)
A day or two ago I was asking someone how to express a です・ます sentence in 敬語. They helped me out but then said that there's no need to learn 敬語 and that a standard politeness level would be fine. I can only guess that from their perspective, the communication is relatively smooth and polite, so it's "good enough", and they see an investment in time learning more as not offering much in terms of cost performance. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that they probably use 敬語 daily. But generally when people say "you don't need to learn that", I think they have good intentions. It can be a little frustrating though!
Culture, fact, or feeling? - wrightak - 2007-09-03
Well I'm glad that we're cool.
I can tell you that if you want to do business in Japan then 敬語 is essential. I put off learning it for a while and I wish I'd started a lot earlier.