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+--- Thread: Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? (/thread-7511.html)
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - aphasiac - 2011-03-21
I'm wondering; has anybody on here actually done AJATT in it's purest form as khatz recommends, i.e. gone straight from doing Remembering the Kanji into mining native Japanese media? If so you can post about your experiences?
I'm asking because I noticed an interesting trend on AJATT+ and on here; most people who discover AJATT have already tried learning Japanese before, and already have a significant vocabulary and some grammar knowledge. In contrast, total beginners tend to go start with pre-made sentence packs, like KO2001 and Core6000, which I now believe are only useful for learning kanji readings; it isn't "real" AJATT (those sentences don't count towards your 10,000 sentences to fluency).
The closest pure AJATT approach I've seen is icecream, who listened to J-dramas all day and picked out random words, but even she ended up using the core6000 to learn tons of new vocab.
I'm just wondering, is jumping straight into native media really possible without you going insane and giving up? Even Antimoon assumes some pre-existing competency with English..
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - dizmox - 2011-03-21
Does not having had social outings with non-Japanese people in the past year count as AJATT?
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - jettyke - 2011-03-21
dizmox Wrote:Does not having had social outings with non-Japanese people in the past year count as AJATT?No, it's NSWAPATT
Not socializing with all people all the time.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - Splatted - 2011-03-21
Khatz got his first sentences from textbooks. If I remember rightly he used a basic Japanese dictionary and all about particles before moving on to mining native stuff.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - IceCream - 2011-03-21
Absolutely it's possible, as long as you have the right resources. You can't -just- have your native media, you need a good grammar guide, the english translation, know something about word order, and a good native - english dictionary, as well as anki.
The main thing the core6k helped me with was solidifying each kanji in my mind the way RTK does for other people, and learning the readings of the kanji.
At the beginning, it's really exciting to just be able to recognise words you heard before, but after you get to grips with a lot of the sentence patterns, well, for me anyway, i just wanted to jump ahead a bit. There's a lot of vocabulary, and learning it all in a sentence pattern you already know isn't soooo useful. But then again, learning it in context really really is...
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - ta12121 - 2011-03-21
jettyke Wrote:haha, we gotta sacrifice something in return for fluency I mean to learn Japanese.dizmox Wrote:Does not having had social outings with non-Japanese people in the past year count as AJATT?No, it's NSWAPATT
Not socializing with all people all the time.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - ta12121 - 2011-03-21
When I was in the beginning phases. I did jump into native material. I found it insanely hard at the time. Therefore I added super basic/super small sentences into my sentence deck. I believe this is how we should proceed, small/basic sentences. The person should only have 1 deck to work with. Don't add any more decks as it would overload someone at that period of time(beginner level).
Not sure how I did it exactly, I just never stopped learning/immersing as much as possible.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - Evil_Dragon - 2011-03-21
There's no "exact AJATT method", it changed quite frequently.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - KMDES - 2011-03-21
Well, let's do some math. AJATT being All Japanese All the Time. We're at a forum that promotes a method of learning kanji via English keywords. So if you've done RTK you've just broke AJATT. :o
And that's not including the fact these forums are mostly English.
So the answer is, no, by technicality.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - Tori-kun - 2011-03-21
AJATT - nice idea, but the 'but(t)': http://tanukijapanese.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/the-meaning-of-immersion-or-10k-in-a-month/
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - NoSleepTilFluent - 2011-03-21
The entire time I do RTK I have Japanese music or TV playing so that time is still All Japanese just stacked with English. Which is promoted by AJATT. Khatz tells a story of him watching the sunset with his girlfriend...while listening to Japanese in one ear. Still all Japanese.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - IceCream - 2011-03-21
wow, how romantic...
but no, he recently had an article detailing exactly what he did in japanese all day, and he did take time off to play frisbie and stuff...
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - erlog - 2011-03-21
The AJATT-method is characterized by heavily mining native sources for good sentences, and trying to stack up 10k of them. Everything outside of that is up to the individual user, and I doubt even Khatz would say that he was able to follow all of his own advice to the letter. AJATT was always a work in progress, and it should be a work in progress for everyone that takes it up.
The 10,000 sentence thing is a little arbitrary, but he's probably correct in his assumption that it will take about 10,000 sentences to get a good spread of grammar and vocab.
I think people should begin their AJATT decks with sentences that consist of basic grammar and vocab from textbooks. After working through something like Genki 1 & 2 or Tae Kim, at that point a person should have enough under their belt to begin working with native sources. In quite a lot of cases with beginners it is not the vocab that throws them off it's the lack of understanding of the grammar. For a long time it was quite possible for me to understand every single word of a sentence, but still not know what the hell it meant. This has subsided as I've encountered more grammar and more advanced grammar.
I think it would be a mistake to take any old random sentences, and use them for the AJATT method. It becomes very difficult at that point to know whether or not you're getting a good spread of vocab and grammar. Vocab, especially, can shift wildly depending on the subject or genre of whatever material you're dealing with.
So I think it's altogether more useful to work systematically from sources like KO2001, Core6k, Kanji in Context, and どんな時どう使う日本語 in order to make sure you're getting the bare minimum of exposure to everything important. The piece of AJATT that I think stands up completely is the idea of working with all grammar and vocab in the context of sentences. It makes so much sense that it almost makes my head hurt.
Studying vocab and grammar through complete sentences makes it so that you can more densely pack a lot of information into your cards. For example, I'm only a little bit less than a third of the way through KiC volume one, but already I'm representing 805 of the jouyou kanji across 884 cards in the deck. A lot of them are represented multiple times, even. It's a very efficient way to study, but obviously there are some things that don't make sense to encounter in sentences such as: days of the month or numbers. You can always just have single-word cards for those things, but for more one-off concepts and constructions it makes far more sense to practice them through sentences.
It also makes reviewing the cards a lot more fun because you're always reading about something new, crazy, or different. It does a lot to prevent the process from feeling too rote, and each new sentence is like a new puzzle to figure out.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - ta12121 - 2011-03-21
I enjoy AJATT as it really comes down to a few things. Have fun,immerse and learn context via sentences in a srs of your choice.
10,000 sentences is definitely enough for one to become functional in Japanese if one does it right(in terms of reading/listening).
Where did I stand when I got there? Definitely functional but that was never my goal for japanese to begin with. I believe if you really want to succeed in a language. You'll only get really far(native-level) if you keep the mindset of never learning. Sure the learning will become easier/less as you reach the advanced stages of learning japanese. But once that happens, all you need to do is maintain/read and immerse to keep your japanese skills up to date.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - Cranks - 2011-03-21
You can do "just" native media, but from the beginning it would be tough. The main issue is that for the media to be any use for you, you would need to understand it (perhaps not the 1st or 2nd time through, but after that you would.) When you're a beginner that is really hard to do. I think as you progress it becomes more accessible.
Probably, what I have learned from reading about other people's experiences here is that things need to be level appropriate. That means if you are just starting out you should stick to the easier stuff (that doesn't always mean language tapes) and as you progress find stuff that challenges your understanding.
Anyway, I did AJATT for awhile and I think it is an effective approach. That said, it's hard to do without an understanding of what Khatz actually did (it seems like everyone sees it differently as well.) Also, what Khatz did didn't work for me, but might for someone else. It's really hard to know what works best until you find it for yourself.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - Kuma01 - 2011-03-24
I think the Ajatt method needs more of a nuance, this "immerse yourself and the grammar and vocabulary will magically come to you" is pretty much nonsense. There should probably be a phase 3,5 after kanji and kana, which includes atleast reading about the very basics of grammar using something tae kim's guide and genki. I think it's also best to atleast 'study' some vocab like you would in school. It's probably possible to get grammar from just sentences, but that would required dozen of example sentences that you'd need to analyze, which is exactly the reason grammar was conceived, to make that obsolete. I believe immersion only helps when you already possess a certain level of competence, like let's say the understanding of a kindergartener.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - TwoMoreCharacters - 2011-03-24
You don't need to study grammar rules to reach the level of a kindergartner though. If you're starting from absolute scratch, seeing some very basic sentences compared to your native language to the point that you understand what each part means, and learning some very basic words, can be enough to be able to "get a feel" for the basics after having listened to a lot of Japanese. How you go on about acquiring basic sentences and words is up to you, Tae Kim's example sentences for instance can be of great value for that, but I don't think that grammar rules makes anything much easier. Not for me anyways.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - astendra - 2011-03-25
Grammar is there to explain and describe the patterns you need to know in order to properly understand the language. Studying grammar makes a lot of sense, I think: even if you could, without error, pick up every little nuance through exposure, it would take a long, long time. It is hardly the more efficient route.
That said, arbitrary grammar rules won't stick well. I think a mixed approach is appropriate here, where you immerse or whatever, and study grammar when helpful or needed.
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - aphasiac - 2011-03-25
astendra Wrote:Studying grammar makes a lot of sense, I think: even if you could, without error, pick up every little nuance through exposure, it would take a long, long time. It is hardly the more efficient route.I was going to make this exact point.
Your brain is very good at seeing patterns, but why try to guess them using tens (or even hundreds) of sentences when you can just look up a clear succinct explanation in your target language. This is the massive advantage adult learns have over kids (we already understand grammar), and this is why is doesn't take most learners 12-15 years to becoming fluent like a kid does.
Also AJATT recommends to try and "not think of grammar rules" when you are studying sentences; this is what khatz means by you should pretend grammar doesn't exist. Remember he still looked up new grammar points using "All About Particles".
Has anyone here actually followed the exact AJATT method ? - TwoMoreCharacters - 2011-03-25
astendra Wrote:Grammar is there to explain and describe the patterns you need to know in order to properly understand the language. Studying grammar makes a lot of sense, I think: even if you could, without error, pick up every little nuance through exposure, it would take a long, long time. It is hardly the more efficient route.Sure, as a reference point it's certainly useful. Like if you're unsure about a particular verb conjugation you can just look it up in a chart and move on.
That said, arbitrary grammar rules won't stick well. I think a mixed approach is appropriate here, where you immerse or whatever, and study grammar when helpful or needed.