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Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - IceCream - 2011-03-16
yeah, both NHK and TBS have live streams...
somehow, i don't think the situation is getting better. they are looking a lot more on edge and are a lot more snappy than they were a few days ago. That could just be tiredness and pressure though. Honestly, i think they are probably holding back a little, but mostly they just don't have a clue what's going on at the scene. This also makes sense since many of the workers evacuated, and there are 4 reactors in a critical situation, they probably want the workers to get on with it as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd had some problems with some of the workers too...
As it is, readings from the areas surrounding the plant are still low enough not to be harmful though, so I don't think there's any massive cover up going on the way a lot of people seem to.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - Seamoby - 2011-03-16
nest0r Wrote:http://www.google.com/crisisresponse/japanquake2011.htmlHmm, I see they have a direct donation button for the Japanese Red Cross Society.
It's updated with many useful schedules and maps for residents, from what I can see.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - mpacheco - 2011-03-16
IceCream Wrote:As it is, readings from the areas surrounding the plant are still low enough not to be harmful though, so I don't think there's any massive cover up going on the way a lot of people seem to.Devil's advocate: If there was a cover up, radiation reports would be one of the first things covered up as far as info that goes to press. So citing low radiation readings as a reason why you don't think there's a cover up.... well, it doesn't make sense.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - dat5h - 2011-03-16
mpacheco Wrote:So ... evidence in favor of no panic means there is reason to panic? I understand you are simply playing devil's advocate, but that's the kind of logic that leads to sensationalism, fear mongering, and tin-foil hats. The American government also claimed earlier that they confirmed the readings independently. I'm not sure how close they got to the reactor, but here's the major question you need to ask:IceCream Wrote:As it is, readings from the areas surrounding the plant are still low enough not to be harmful though, so I don't think there's any massive cover up going on the way a lot of people seem to.Devil's advocate: If there was a cover up, radiation reports would be one of the first things covered up as far as info that goes to press. So citing low radiation readings as a reason why you don't think there's a cover up.... well, it doesn't make sense.
If you don't accept two governments, 東京電力, or media telling the truth ... who do you trust?
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - nest0r - 2011-03-16
You could always spend the day watching the live streams of geiger counters such as Tokyo and Chiba on ustream.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - mpacheco - 2011-03-16
dat5h Wrote:So ... evidence in favor of no panic means there is reason to panic?No. I was pointing out a flaw in the logic.
dat5h Wrote:If you don't accept two governments, 東京電力, or media telling the truth ... who do you trust?Al Jazeera's website is a good place to start.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - IceCream - 2011-03-16
mpacheco Wrote:Well then TBS & NHK must be in on it along with the government and TEPCO. Of course the government and TEPCO might cover things up, but the readings from the surrounding areas don't come from them, they come from the broadcasting stations.IceCream Wrote:As it is, readings from the areas surrounding the plant are still low enough not to be harmful though, so I don't think there's any massive cover up going on the way a lot of people seem to.Devil's advocate: If there was a cover up, radiation reports would be one of the first things covered up as far as info that goes to press. So citing low radiation readings as a reason why you don't think there's a cover up.... well, it doesn't make sense.
People have been making the point that each reading given is per hour, rather than a single event like an xray, or a yearly dose. Due to this: Background radiation in parts of Iran, India and Europe: 50 mSv/year from wiki, the normal amount (high but safe) per hour should be around 5.7micro Sieverts per hour, did i calculate that right? does that work though? ugh sleeeepy...
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - dat5h - 2011-03-16
mpacheco Wrote:I would generally agree with that, but remember that they still get most of their information from NHK, etc.dat5h Wrote:If you don't accept two governments, 東京電力, or media telling the truth ... who do you trust?Al Jazeera's website is a good place to start.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - zigmonty - 2011-03-16
NHK now reporting they abandoned the helicopter water drop plan because the radiation was far above the maximum 50 mSv permitted. Guess the radiation levels in the air above are significantly higher than the readings on the ground at the gate of the plant?
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - IceCream - 2011-03-16
well, it would be right? They really better start checking any fish they catch soon!!! And hope the wind doesn't change...
given the state of the buildings, and the explosions, and the fire, who knows whether there's a real leak or not... if they can't carry on cooling it, there will be soon if there isn't already though, no?
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - LazyNomad - 2011-03-16
zigmonty Wrote:Don't get me wrong, the situation is serious (potentially life threatening), but factually incorrect media reports with hysterical, baseless references to Chernobyl do no one any good (except drive ratings...).Ok. I actually prepared a long answer to argue on this topic, but somehow managed to lost it before I posted it. To put it very short, I am really scared with what`s going on at Fukushima.
I was working in the company that produces nuclear fuel and also visited several nuclear facilities in Japan few times, one time specifically to study radiation control measures. I am in Japan now, and listen only Japanese media, so it`s not like I am under influence of western media.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - Jarvik7 - 2011-03-16
IceCream Wrote:well, it would be right? They really better start checking any fish they catch soon!!! And hope the wind doesn't change...Being irradiated doesn't make you radioactive. If the fish still contained radioactive particles it would be a danger to someone who ate it, but the matter that was released so far all has a very short halflife (a few seconds to few days).
Japanese media is also sensationalist, just not as much as American media. Don't get all worked up about it. People are panic buying crap even down here in Nagoya.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - IceCream - 2011-03-16
Jarvik7 Wrote:it might take a little while, but it tends to accumulate somewhere in the foodchain, no? Also, i'm not sure where you've heard that, i've not seen the levels reported anywhere, but both radioactive iodine AND caesium 137 were reported to be released in the venting. Caesium 137 is the one with the half life of 30 years. It really depends on the levels...IceCream Wrote:well, it would be right? They really better start checking any fish they catch soon!!! And hope the wind doesn't change...Being irradiated doesn't make you radioactive. If the fish still contained radioactive particles it would be a danger to someone who ate it, but the matter that was released so far all has a very short halflife (a few seconds to few days).
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - zigmonty - 2011-03-16
LazyNomad Wrote:It's a shame you lost it, i'd love to hear your take. There's a serious dearth of information from people who actually know what they're talking about. If you've got anything that contradicts the government line, please share.zigmonty Wrote:Don't get me wrong, the situation is serious (potentially life threatening), but factually incorrect media reports with hysterical, baseless references to Chernobyl do no one any good (except drive ratings...).Ok. I actually prepared a long answer to argue on this topic, but somehow managed to lost it before I posted it. To put it very short, I am really scared with what`s going on at Fukushima.
I was working in the company that produces nuclear fuel and also visited several nuclear facilities in Japan few times, one time specifically to study radiation control measures. I am in Japan now, and listen only Japanese media, so it`s not like I am under influence of western media.
GE are offering 1000 engineers apparently. I know i'd feel more comfortable with american nuclear engineers in there. The mistakes that are being made are worrying, as is the sense that they're continually reacting to the situation rather than getting it under control.
If you've only been listening to Japanese media then you're probably not aware of the scaremongering in the western press at the moment. Some of them seem to not even really care about the situation and just say the biggest combination of "full-scale" "catastrophic" "meltdown" and "radiation poisoning" that they can squeeze into a report. All the japanese press i've read has been far more sane and calm.
I don't think the truth should be withheld, but factual errors from professional journalists reporting on an important topic are just really grating.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - vinniram - 2011-03-16
zigmonty Wrote:GE are offering 1000 engineers apparently. I know i'd feel more comfortable with american nuclear engineers in there. The mistakes that are being made are worrying, as is the sense that they're continually reacting to the situation rather than getting it under control.this sounds mean to me i have to say. maybe i'm misinterpreting, but I feel this is derogatory to the Japanese efforts, they're doing their best and all people seem to do is criticize them. who is to say americans will do any better? why not send in Chinese? or French?
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - nest0r - 2011-03-16
All of the ‘It's nothing like Chernobyl’ type talk I've read has been robust, technically complicated argumentation from a bevy of nuclear experts from around the world, via articles, blog entries, Twitter explanations, documents, news reports, etc. The only ‘this is really bad and scary it's like Chernobyl’ talk I've heard has been from tabloids, occasional Western anchors, and various random people online.
I've also seen only amazed praise for the Japanese technicians and engineers from the same types. Surprised to see someone saying they'd feel more comfortable with American engineers.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - zigmonty - 2011-03-16
Jarvik7 Wrote:Actually, that depends on what you're irradiated with. Neutron radiation can make stuff radioactive, by being absorbed into nuclei and forming a radioactive isotope. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe anything that is a neutron emitter usually has an incredibly short half life. Caesium-137 (the one with the 30 year half life) is a beta emitter, ie electrons (or positrons? i forget).IceCream Wrote:well, it would be right? They really better start checking any fish they catch soon!!! And hope the wind doesn't change...Being irradiated doesn't make you radioactive. If the fish still contained radioactive particles it would be a danger to someone who ate it, but the matter that was released so far all has a very short halflife (a few seconds to few days).
Japanese media is also sensationalist, just not as much as American media. Don't get all worked up about it. People are panic buying crap even down here in Nagoya.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - zigmonty - 2011-03-16
vinniram Wrote:Yeah, you're right, that was mean of me. Still, they *are* GE reactors and while it's doubtful the people they'd be sending are the original designers (they're old reactors...), they potentially know more about how to deal with the problems than the day-to-day operators. Hence why GE is offering to send them. I believe that in the last couple of decades at least, the american power industry has had a better safety record too. Weren't TEPCO guys resigning a decade or so ago over safety scandals? Falsified reports or something? There was that criticality accident as well. It's not that unfair to be a little worried about the guys running this.zigmonty Wrote:GE are offering 1000 engineers apparently. I know i'd feel more comfortable with american nuclear engineers in there. The mistakes that are being made are worrying, as is the sense that they're continually reacting to the situation rather than getting it under control.this sounds mean to me i have to say. maybe i'm misinterpreting, but I feel this is derogatory to the Japanese efforts, they're doing their best and all people seem to do is criticize them. who is to say americans will do any better? why not send in Chinese? or French?
We'll find out afterwards when all this is investigated whether this was a situation that was controllable or whether there were mistakes made that exacerbated the situation. No one in the nuclear power industry will criticise the handling of the situation while events are still unfolding. That would just cause panic.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - thurd - 2011-03-16
zigmonty Wrote:GE are offering 1000 engineers apparently. I know i'd feel more comfortable with american nuclear engineers in there. The mistakes that are being made are worrying, as is the sense that they're continually reacting to the situation rather than getting it under control.So far Fukushima looks very similar to Three Mile Island incident, the only difference Fukushima is still happening and there is lots of media scaremongering going on that cloud the situation. I've yet to hear about any REAL serious threat to human health, there are no reported deaths and everything that happened is well explained in SERIOUS articles over the net.
Thats why I don't see "american nuclear engineers" as a magical remedy to this problem, their only purpose there would be to assure American public that "their boys" are handling this situation and surely nothing bad can happen now since they waved American flag in front of the reactor... I think we've more serious things to worry about than a few rednecks going apeshit just because someone mentioned "nuclear" in a sentence they don't understand.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - zigmonty - 2011-03-16
thurd Wrote:Well, that's not the general consensus. France's atomic energy agency is tipping this as a level 6, whereas TMI was a level 5. Japan's rated it as a 4, but that was ages ago and surely will be revised up. They've had explosions that have done unknown damage and fires in spent fuel cooling pools. The site looks like it's suffered an air raid. The situation stopped being like TMI by about sunday. I still think comparisons to Chernobyl are misguided, but comparisons to TMI are also somewhat misguided at this point.zigmonty Wrote:GE are offering 1000 engineers apparently. I know i'd feel more comfortable with american nuclear engineers in there. The mistakes that are being made are worrying, as is the sense that they're continually reacting to the situation rather than getting it under control.So far Fukushima looks very similar to Three Mile Island incident, the only difference Fukushima is still happening and there is lots of media scaremongering going on that cloud the situation. I've yet to hear about any REAL serious threat to human health, there are no reported deaths and everything that happened is well explained in SERIOUS articles over the net.
I'll ignore the rest except to point out that I'm Australian, not American, and my comments were not patriotism.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - nest0r - 2011-03-16
When we're talking about how nuclear safety incidents are reported over the decades in terms of companies and governments in technologically developed countries with a bazillion nuclear reactors, I don't think it's meaningful to talk about the competence of American vs. Japanese engineers, especially in this situation.
I don't think working for GE or being an American in this case makes one intrinsically more skillful at handling the situation. But I know nothing about nuclear power, so. I've just been watching these dialogues and reports unfold in a sort of baffled state, trying to piece things together. At the end of the day we're talking about the compromise of nuclear safety amidst earthquake and tsunami recovery in its early days, so I can accept and sympathize with all manner of concerns. I just hope it continues to be as amazingly poised and reasonable as it has been. The undercurrent of horror I feel has been oddly offset by warm regard for the people in this situation.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - Nagareboshi - 2011-03-16
zigmonty Wrote:What i remember is having seen a report on NHK some years ago. And as far as i remember they were showing how the TEPCO president and some of his staff, who was bowing before a woman and some others, who had lost family members - due to an accident. It was and accident that caused 3 or 4 people to die. It was because radiation was leaking, and the company was not forthcoming with a report, so something along those lines. Must have been between 2005 ~ 2007. I guess you could find something about it on the web, just don't take this as 100% correct information. It's just something that i think had happened.vinniram Wrote:Yeah, you're right, that was mean of me. Still, they *are* GE reactors and while it's doubtful the people they'd be sending are the original designers (they're old reactors...), they potentially know more about how to deal with the problems than the day-to-day operators. Hence why GE is offering to send them. I believe that in the last couple of decades at least, the american power industry has had a better safety record too. Weren't TEPCO guys resigning a decade or so ago over safety scandals? Falsified reports or something? There was that criticality accident as well. It's not that unfair to be a little worried about the guys running this.zigmonty Wrote:GE are offering 1000 engineers apparently. I know i'd feel more comfortable with american nuclear engineers in there. The mistakes that are being made are worrying, as is the sense that they're continually reacting to the situation rather than getting it under control.this sounds mean to me i have to say. maybe i'm misinterpreting, but I feel this is derogatory to the Japanese efforts, they're doing their best and all people seem to do is criticize them. who is to say americans will do any better? why not send in Chinese? or French?
We'll find out afterwards when all this is investigated whether this was a situation that was controllable or whether there were mistakes made that exacerbated the situation. No one in the nuclear power industry will criticise the handling of the situation while events are still unfolding. That would just cause panic.
If western mass media wants to compare Chernobyl to something, they should consider talking about Челябинск Озерск Chelyabinks Ozersk and Mayak company. That is really the only tragedy that's comparable to Chernobyl, and even topping it in terms of radiation, contamination, and people suffering up to this very day. Chernobyl was unique, well almost, see Mayak and their reactors, the US had their Three Miles Island accident. And if anything, so far as media goes, this might be the only other legit comparison, between this whats happening in Japan at Fukushima.
I just wonder why the media has not yet come up with, say, something like: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because it has to do with serious damage, caused by radiation. But having seen what i have seen from "trusted" media, they might have done that already ...
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - zigmonty - 2011-03-16
nest0r Wrote:When we're talking about how nuclear safety incidents are reported over the decades in terms of companies and governments in technologically countries with a bazillion nuclear reactors, I don't think it's meaningful to talk about the competence of American vs. Japanese engineers, especially in this situation.That's not really what i meant... I work with japanese engineers and certainly wouldn't claim they are incompetent. But meh, maybe it's easier to retract my statement than continue to argue the point. I never suggested the Japanese engineers should be replaced with American engineers. I just hope the guys managing this aren't too proud to ask for help if they are in over their heads. I doubt anyone's got a silver bullet, but fresh minds are often a good thing and having specialists from the company that designed the reactors on site doesn't sound like the stupidest idea.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - LazyNomad - 2011-03-16
zigmonty Wrote:No, I don`t mean that government is lying to public. It`s just the public that doesn`t understand the meaning of what they hear.LazyNomad Wrote:It's a shame you lost it, i'd love to hear your take. There's a serious dearth of information from people who actually know what they're talking about. If you've got anything that contradicts the government line, please share.zigmonty Wrote:Don't get me wrong, the situation is serious (potentially life threatening), but factually incorrect media reports with hysterical, baseless references to Chernobyl do no one any good (except drive ratings...).Ok. I actually prepared a long answer to argue on this topic, but somehow managed to lost it before I posted it. To put it very short, I am really scared with what`s going on at Fukushima.
I was working in the company that produces nuclear fuel and also visited several nuclear facilities in Japan few times, one time specifically to study radiation control measures. I am in Japan now, and listen only Japanese media, so it`s not like I am under influence of western media.
As one such example, there is continuing white smoke from the pool with spent fuel. This fuel is not inside containment. And it is spent fuel, which means it is highly radioactive, uranium inside partly transmutated to plutonium, and there are oxides of iodine and cesium, deadly mix. But my wife was not worried at all when she heard the news. She thought that spent nuclear fuel is not dangerous anymore, because it is "spent".
And smokes from fuel goes straightly into the atmosphere through the hole in the wall and in the roof.
Now they don`t know what to do with it. To fly over it is to dangerous. So they decided to take a long hose, to insert it in the hole in the wall, and to pump water from the distance. Needless to say, that there are no robots to do this dirty job. Volunteers are all over 60, as far as I understood. What a tradegy
how is this so much different from Chernobyl I don`t understand
And actually I remember when Chernobyl happened, Soviet government was telling it`s citizens something along the line "Don`t panic! It`s not a nuclear explosion. It is a thermal explosion. It is like explosion of boiler at thermal plant." Nobody was aware how bad it is for a long time.
Earthquake in Japan March 11th 2011 - vinniram - 2011-03-16
Just saw a piece on CNN a little while ago, comparing recent events with the atomic genocide in 1945. It's amazing, they managed to present the whole piece as though the bombs has simply dropped out of the sky of their own accord, as if no one had actually dropped them, and it had all been some 'natural disaster'. That's the way it came across to me, and I have to say it made me really angry and livid that they would even go there.