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+--- Thread: The thread 4 the rest of us (/thread-7240.html)
The thread 4 the rest of us - truando - 2011-02-09
OK. I will admit here and now that I am on the slow side.
Incredible things have been achieved by members of this forum. Fast forwarding through 10,001 sentences and 213,000 pieces of vocab in what 18 months, speaking fluently in 3 weeks, learning to write and read 5,000 Kanji in a few days - you name it...
My process, in comparison, is painfully slow. I go through 300 Kanji and their compounds in KO2001 only to forget them 3 weeks later. I have a hard time writing down a few sentences I'm trying to come up with, and when asked to produce a few simple thoughts in Japanese in my class I sound like a retard...
And - yes, I admit it - I go to a Japanese class, so I guess I'm daddy uncool...
But I get up every morning at 6AM to study instead of hanging out in bed for another 2 hours, and I'm really working hard to improve. So it's not that I'm a lazy *****...
Are there people like me in this forum? Regular people? Do you feel like sharing a few thoughts? How do you cope? How do you stay positive despite moving on at 1/100 of the speed of these superlearners?
The thread 4 the rest of us - aphasiac - 2011-02-09
LOL count me in on this thread!
I started learning Japanese 2 years ago, because I always sucked at languages at school, and was inspired after reading the AJATT website. Guess what; I suck at Japanese learning too
In the past 2 years I've finished RtK, read through Tae Kim, started and gave up on 2001KO, now slooowing making my way through Core 2000. Oh and I had 20 weeks of intensive Nihongo classes through my work (4 hours a week + homework) but I can still produce pretty much zero!
Now finally making a tiny bit of progress (i.e. I can recognise a few words/sentences in native media) and looks like I have to give it all up and learn Mandarin! doh!
Anyway I could have done a whole lot more, but I'm a lazy b'stard. Seeing Khatz's daily schedule posted recently on AJATT, I can see why he achieved so much in so little time, and why I've been a failure; the key is focus mixed with consistency . If I'd learnt just 5 new words a day since I started studying, I've have a vocabulary of almost 4,000 words, but little effort..now gotta get back to studying...
The thread 4 the rest of us - wccrawford - 2011-02-09
It's all about goals. Having them, and reaching them.
I'm too lazy to learn at light speed like some people. I can't spend 6 hours a day learning... I'm lucky to spend 10 minutes.
Instead, I have goals that I want to reach. My first major goal, reading manga, was reached quite a while back. My second major goal, reading light novels, was reached very recently. My next goal, reading light novels without furigana, is still quite a ways off.
Instead of beating myself up over not studying enough, I enjoy my time with Japanese. I watch TV (mostly with subs, but sometimes not) and read books (usually without a dictionary) and just enjoy myself.
I keep a diary on Lang-8, and I'm pretty bad at forming sentences there.
I have a couple speaking partners and I'm horrifically bad at forming sentences there.
Keep going, keep having fun, and everything will work out.
The thread 4 the rest of us - Tzadeck - 2011-02-09
The creation of this thread is a Festivus miracle!
When do we do the Airing of Grievanes?
I've studied Japanese for almost six years now. Three of them were in college and now I've lived in Japan for three years.
But I still haven't passed JLPT1, and even JLPT2 I didn't pass until this summer.
I got through RTK last year, but it took almost six months. I tried to get through Core 6000, but I still haven't finished after almost a year, haha. I don't have any other decks except RTK, and I've got like 1,300 cards piled up that I never really plan to do.
The thread 4 the rest of us - kainzero - 2011-02-09
truando Wrote:Incredible things have been achieved by members of this forum. Fast forwarding through 10,001 sentences and 213,000 pieces of vocab in what 18 months, speaking fluently in 3 weeks, learning to write and read 5,000 Kanji in a few days - you name it...I don't think anyone is like this. Maybe that ta1259157189047012 guy talking about his progress, but when you realize that he spent anywhere from 4-6 hours per day studying like that, you realize that his 18 months look different from your 18 months.
Quote:My process, in comparison, is painfully slow. I go through 300 Kanji and their compounds in KO2001 only to forget them 3 weeks later. I have a hard time writing down a few sentences I'm trying to come up with, and when asked to produce a few simple thoughts in Japanese in my class I sound like a retard...3 weeks later only?
What do you mean by forget?
There are many cards that I've failed after 3 weeks. They go back in the pile. Re-remembering something is easier than learning. (Is re-remembering even a word?)
As for production, you need practice. And if you're not good now, that's what practice is for. The difference in my Lang-8 journal from this year and last is staggering. Keep writing, get it corrected, and you'll get better.
I don't even know why you think you sound like a retard. Look, we're all learning. Even if I converse with a Japanese person in my broken Japanese, they (should) understand that I'm learning their language and respond appropriately. Think about the times when someone who clearly didn't know English would talk to you and try to communicate an idea. You didn't think they were stupid, you probably respected them for trying so hard. The only thing that pisses me off is when they act like they know when they don't know.
Quote:And - yes, I admit it - I go to a Japanese class, so I guess I'm daddy uncool...Actually, no one cares whether or not it's cool.
Quote:Are there people like me in this forum? Regular people? Do you feel like sharing a few thoughts? How do you cope? How do you stay positive despite moving on at 1/100 of the speed of these superlearners?All you can do is move at your own pace and at your own speed, don't compare it with anybody else's. Whether it's 1 hour a day, 4 hours a day, an extra 2 hours every day... just be mindful of what you do and what you can do, adjust it appropriately, and remember your own motivation, not other people's motivation. You need to stop comparing your progress with other people, learning a language is not a competition. (Unless it is a competition. hahah.) It even looks insecure as you bring up things like taking class or that you wake up 2 hours early. Trust yourself.
The thread 4 the rest of us - Zarxrax - 2011-02-09
I've been studying Japanese 6-7 years.
I've been REALLY studying Japanese for about 2 years.
I still can't read even the simplest of manga without a dictionary handy.
Writing emails to friends is still an exercise in frustration, and I often just dont say lots of sentences that I want to say, because I just cant figure out how.
But, I dont care if I have to spend the rest of my life to get fluent.
There's no turning back now!
The thread 4 the rest of us - thecite - 2011-02-09
213, 000 vocab in 10, 001 cards?
What deck is this?
But come on, fluent in 3 weeks? That's a pipe dream; physically impossible, unless you're John Travolta from 'Phenomenon' or something.
The thread 4 the rest of us - zachandhobbes - 2011-02-09
I'm not gonna lie I'm pretty slow.
I don't like to do lots of reviews or spend more than an hour or at max, two, on Japanese.
I got high school GPA to worry about! And SAT!
The thread 4 the rest of us - jofiddle - 2011-02-09
I started RTK in April 2009 and still haven't finished - I'm about 3/4 of the the way through. I have a lot of things to do in my life apart from learn Japanese, and in my Japanese studies kanji has been not really a priority. I'm happy to be slow - I just think about all the other interesting things I've done with my time. Also I suspect my speaking is much better than a lot of the speeders.
The thread 4 the rest of us - Asriel - 2011-02-09
I took a Japanese class too! I enjoyed it so much I decided upon Japanese Language and Literature as one of my majors
I'll soon have a BA in uncool. And Computer Science, but mainly uncool. This makes my 4th year studying (started as a "hey look they have Japanese!" when I signed up for my freshman classes). I made super awesome progress my first year, kind of mid-better-than-average my 2nd year, was in Japan for year 3 (more "getting used to" using Japanese than any forced effort) and now I'm back in the states working my ass off to finish this degree within the traditional 4 years -- which is leaving me with NO time to study Japanese.
I just took JLPT N1 in December -- and I'm not sure if I passed. It's going to be very borderline -- I wouldn't be surprised in the least if I failed... slightly surprised if I passed, but relieved that I don't have to take it again...unless I want to.
That being said, I can feel myself losing more and more Japanese as the days go on...unless it's in my head?
The thread 4 the rest of us - aphasiac - 2011-02-09
kainzero Wrote:I don't think anyone is like this. Maybe that ta1259157189047012 guy talking about his progress, but when you realize that he spent anywhere from 4-6 hours per day studying like that, you realize that his 18 months look different from your 18 monthsI think the issue is, people tend to post about their current achievements and well they're doing.
Then on the other hand, people doing badly don't post to say how much they suck or to take about how they've failed; instead they make posts asking for advice, which again are responded to by people saying how they're making amazing progress.
This does give an overall impression that everyone is doing amazingly well, or at least alot better than you.
The thread 4 the rest of us - Asriel - 2011-02-09
aphasiac Wrote:Then on the other hand, people doing badly don't post to say how much they suck or to take about how they've failed;I think we need a thread like this (perhaps that's what this is?)
We have the encouragement thread, and that's fine. But sometimes wouldn't it be good to have a thread where you can complain about how you have no time? How you're not progressing? How certain ideas you had just didn't work out the way you wanted it to?
Of course it's always best to get back up on the horse when you fall off, but it shouldn't matter if you scream out when you hit the ground. As long as you get back on.
The thread 4 the rest of us - thecite - 2011-02-09
Asriel Wrote:But sometimes wouldn't it be good to have a thread where you can complain about how you have no time? How you're not progressing? How certain ideas you had just didn't work out the way you wanted it to?'The Bitching Thread', or 'The Venting Thread'
The thread 4 the rest of us - zachandhobbes - 2011-02-09
the thing is, what gauges slowness?
Personally, even though I only learned 800 kanji and quit for 3 months and am now crawling back up, I think my progress is more than if I had never tried. In fact I'm very surprised at my speed even though by koohii 'pwnage' standards its quite slow
The thread 4 the rest of us - Nagareboshi - 2011-02-09
What you basically saying is that you don't feel you make any progress, but you wish you could move faster, but the process is painfully slow and not very effective? Change!
Tell me this:
Do you know which methods work best for you to learn the language?
What did and did not work for you so far?
Why are you working through KO2001?
Because it was the next logic step?
Or is it that someone has written somewhere that doing it would be good?
Why don't you just grab a textbook like みんなの日本語 or Japanese for Everyone and work through that instead?
Is it fun for you to get up so early to learn?
Or does it feel more like work and not the least bit fun?
What CAN you say already give an example?
What are your weak spots?
Do you do any exercises?
Do you have a schedule?
Willing to keep a diary to see that you DO make progress?
There are many things you are able to achieve in a rather short amount of time. But there is no "one-approach-works-for-everyone" to learn the language. It is all about how well you know yourself and what works best for you.
Let me give you an example. I was working through げんき 1 last year from front to back. It took me less than one month to do it. In that time i not only did all the exercises in the book but also in the workbook. When i did this the first time around, i was not aware that a tool like Anki would help me. I was not sure how to use it either, or how to create flash cards. This i was learning while working through RTK 1. Now i use it for vocab as well as sentences. But that is not all i do. I also use Online Resources for my textbook like *click me* or *click me* When i do these exercises it is just for fun. But it reinforces what i have been learning during my self-study time.
I was planning on doing the same with げんき 2. One month for 10 lessons is not all that much. I thought i could do it in less time. But when i actually started working through げんき 2 i hit a brick wall. My motivation was lost and i did not know what was going on. That is when i discovered that going slower is actually a good idea. I was looking at my new years resolutions made last year and saw what little i had planned on achieving. And then i realized, that it does not make a difference, if it takes three weeks or a month to work through the book. It is what i can make out of the things i learn that's really important.
When i realized that, i also found out about a tool called Evernote, which i now use for my study. I extract the core information of each grammar point, make a short note about conjugation rules, and if i need it, it is all there for me. I was also starting to realize that going super hard on me is not the best idea. Now i use the Evernote "cheat sheets," with grammar points, some sentences on it, and some conjugation rules, and the exercises are a breeze. I also use my notes to review the essence of the grammar points. But i still try hard not to take a look at any of the information there, while doing the exercises, just in case i need it.
But i do see progress, going a bit slower now, and with more fun than ever. For instance some days ago i was working on lesson 13, the first lesson in the second げんき book. The exercise was about potential forms, and there were pictures, from which i should tell what Mary can do.
So, i saw her, sitting there with her chopsticks, and i though "ok, this one is about Mary and that she is able to eat with chopsticks." So i was typing away
メアリーさんは端が食べられます。
after finishing the other exercises i was checking if my answers were correct. Then i saw in my Answer key メアリーさんはすしが食べられます。 And it dawned on me what i had written instead. Mary is able (or can) eat chopsticks ... *yikes* I had to laugh hard once i found out!
But this is what language learning is about! No matter how fast or slow you think you are, as long as you are making progess, and as long as you don't have to force yourself to learn - you are fine. Find the right methods that work best for you, and enjoy the classroom experience, instead of thinking you are daddy uncool or sounding like a retard for not being able to say some sentences straight. Just don't compare yourself to any of those that are working super fast, because even if you are not one of them, you will get there in your own pace. Just like me, i will get there, and i consider my progress compared to some others super slow as well. I just hope that this wall of text contains something to help you.
I know this post is super long ... So, whoever is willing to read it, once you see this line you have made it.
お休みなさい
The thread 4 the rest of us - thecite - 2011-02-09
Sorry, I skipped to the 'you have made it' part.
The thread 4 the rest of us - julianjalapeno - 2011-02-09
The thing I`ve realized with learning a second language (especially one as hard as this) is it just takes time. You can put in hours a day for a long time and still only see marginal improvement, but eventually you`ll have something to show for it.
I think things like RtK and AJATT are dangerous in this respect because they promise you mastery in a short amount of time. It doesn`t work like that with this hobby/skill and the times we live in where everything is so fast and accessible and immediately gratifying don`t help much either.
I`ve lived in Japan for 3 years and have been studying for 7 and I sound like a moron when I speak Japanese. However, when I look back at stuff I said in my second year or stuff I tried to read but couldn`t in my third year compared to what I understand now, there is a noticeable difference.
The thread 4 the rest of us - ta12121 - 2011-02-09
thecite Wrote:213, 000 vocab in 10, 001 cards?Even my decks aren't that big. Time has been flying by, I've now reached 1.5 years of learning Japanese. But I've learned that we just gotta enjoy the ride. Fluency is a word that bugs a lot of people, even me at times. But if you enjoy what your doing then, it's all matter of time.
What deck is this?
But come on, fluent in 3 weeks? That's a pipe dream; physically impossible, unless you're John Travolta from 'Phenomenon' or something.
The thread 4 the rest of us - ta12121 - 2011-02-09
aphasiac Wrote:In all honesty, there will always be people who are ahead/better then you (not me).kainzero Wrote:I don't think anyone is like this. Maybe that ta1259157189047012 guy talking about his progress, but when you realize that he spent anywhere from 4-6 hours per day studying like that, you realize that his 18 months look different from your 18 monthsI think the issue is, people tend to post about their current achievements and well they're doing.
Then on the other hand, people doing badly don't post to say how much they suck or to take about how they've failed; instead they make posts asking for advice, which again are responded to by people saying how they're making amazing progress.
This does give an overall impression that everyone is doing amazingly well, or at least alot better than you.
There are several reasons for this, some people learn faster or some people just put in a lot of time.
Heck I know a few people who have reached exceptionally speaking abilities in Japanese(took years), that puts me to shame. But they say not learning kanji is a big barrier in fully mastering Japanese. So it tends to show you that some people have strong literacy skills while some people have strong spoken skills.
If you want to know where I stand in terms of spending time. Some days I spend very little but I've always manged to keep doing my srs reps. While some days I've spent nothing but learning Japanese. It really comes down to time, enjoyment and good methods and that will to keep going. Don't worry about other peoples progress, you'll get to your goals in no time.
P.S. I''ve started to use Lang-8 finally. Once I get a mic, I'll post myself reading Japanese(audio). Just for people to criticize my accent in japanese (constructive of course)
The thread 4 the rest of us - Asriel - 2011-02-09
ta12121 Wrote:In all honesty, there will always be people who are ahead/better then you (not me).Haha! I know what you mean, but when I first read this, I thought you meant
"There'll always be someone better than you (but not better than me)"
The thread 4 the rest of us - zachandhobbes - 2011-02-09
Last edited by ta12121 (7:21 pm)
something fishy is going on here
The thread 4 the rest of us - ta12121 - 2011-02-09
Asriel Wrote:LOL. I couldn't write that, well maybe.ta12121 Wrote:In all honesty, there will always be people who are ahead/better then you (not me).Haha! I know what you mean, but when I first read this, I thought you meant
"There'll always be someone better than you (but not better than me)"
The thread 4 the rest of us - ta12121 - 2011-02-09
zachandhobbes Wrote:Last edited by ta12121 (7:21 pm)I just corrected what time it is around where I am. It's 11.37pm here
something fishy is going on here
The thread 4 the rest of us - zachandhobbes - 2011-02-09
haha, I'm just teasing you, don't worry.
The thread 4 the rest of us - ta12121 - 2011-02-09
zachandhobbes Wrote:haha, I'm just teasing you, don't worry.or are you? lol joking