I'm so bad at particles - Printable Version

I'm so bad at particles - Printable Version

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I'm so bad at particles - Cyborg Ninja - 2011-01-22

Every time I make a post on Lang-8, I have at least a dozen corrections. It's mostly particles. I've focused so many years on studying grammar and particles, and yet it seems I just don't have a native grasp for them. I'm better, but still not good. I bought a book called "Japanese Particle Workbook" and I've done about a third of it. It's been helpful, but I haven't really retained everything I feel I should have. Perhaps it's not enough work for me. Does anyone have any suggestions or personal experiences to share?

I'm so bad at particles - vinniram - 2011-01-22

ｔｒｙ Naoko Chino's "All About Particles". Or better yet, buy "a dictionary of basic Japanese grammar" - it covers the particles in much more depth and you'll never confuse them again.

I'm so bad at particles - Hashiriya - 2011-01-22

sometimes reviewing the basics every now and then helps me out a lot.

I'm so bad at particles - mezbup - 2011-01-23

I found it took a year of solid immersion before particles actually even began to make any sense. Even though it's the most "simplest" grammar because it's the most common, I'd say it's the hardest thing to get a natural grip on because they're so widespread it just takes a long time for all the patterns to be recognised and settle in the brain.

I'm so bad at particles - mutley - 2011-01-23

I'd second that 'all about particles' book as quite a good one. It explains everything pretty clearly, but yes there is a tendancy to read through it and think you understand, only to feel lost again a few days later when you can't remember the explanation.

To a certain extent I think you just get better with more practice and exposure to the language. I find that 80-90% of the time I can work out which particle to use just by remembering a similar sentence or just by what sounds most natural.

I'm so bad at particles - astendra - 2011-01-23

mezbup Wrote:I'd say it's the hardest thing to get a natural grip on because they're so widespread it just takes a long time for all the patterns to be recognised and settle in the brain.

tokyostyle Wrote:For me the only thing that really worked was a metric ton of input.

This. Read as much as you can. Seeing grammar you've studied 'in the wild' will make it more tangible, and really cements the learning.

I'm so bad at particles - fakewookie - 2011-01-23

Which ones in particular do you have trouble with?

I'm so bad at particles - Cranks - 2011-01-23

I have problems with, which word to use myself and when. That comes with immersion too. I figure it'll take time. I'm in the pre-intermediate stage too and I think immersion + constant review should do it for me. I think you get the usage of a particular particle through use and you only really get one usage at a time; hence, it takes awhile.

I'm so bad at particles - Tori-kun - 2011-01-23

I don't get for instance these little differences between のは　or ことは and のが, when nominalising a phrase, like:

すしを食べることは大好きです。　-> ことは or のは or のが? (I like eating Sushi.)

And of course, the correct usage of には/では or just　に or　で without ha.

I'm so bad at particles - Javizy - 2011-01-23

Checking examples of the verb you're using helps a lot. For example, you might think 挑戦する should be used with を, but it's actually に. I find it easier to just think of this sort of thing as a collocation, rather than trying to explain why. When I review my vocabulary deck, I generally try to remember how to use the word, as well as what it means.

Tori-kun Wrote:I don't get for instance these little differences between のは　or ことは and のが, when nominalising a phrase, like:

すしを食べることは大好きです。　-> ことは or のは or のが? (I like eating Sushi.)

Basically, こと is more abstract. Your example has the nuance of 'I love (the concept of) eating sushi', which suggests you don't actually know what eating sushi is like yourself, making the use of 大好き a bit strange.

Tori-kun Wrote:And of course, the correct usage of には/では or just　に or　で without ha.

You're just having problems with は. It doesn't matter if に and で are used with it or not. Reading the explanations in ADBJG and Making Sense of Japanese are a great starting point, but it still takes a decent amount of exposure and practice to get it right.

I'm so bad at particles - dusmar84 - 2011-01-23

@Tori-kun Understanding basic Japanese grammar has a good write up on the difference between when to use のは　and ことは。 They're essentially the exact same save for the fact that のは is used to nominalize something you are close to/have a connection with. ことは on the otherhand nominalizes that which you have no personal/emotionl connection with.

example,

小説を書くのは難しい。Writing a novel is difficult (You are speaking from some experience you have with writing novels. Any connection at all will do, maybe your mother was a writer and you witnessed her struggles etc.

小説を書くことは難しい。Writing a novel is difficult. (Just a general statement of fact to which you have no previous experience/connection with)

It goes on to say that の sounds softer so its used to speak about matters close to us and こと has a harder sound which its why its used to speak objectively about matters, almost mechanically.

I'm so bad at particles - Tori-kun - 2011-01-23

@dusmar -- Thanks for that explanation, it was really useful and understandable! The translation of a sentence will be the same, although background information is provided, depending on the usage of のは or ことは. So, I could say f.e.

日本語で書くのは少し難しい。 I have the experience of writing japanese being difficult.
日本語で書くことは少し難しい。 (Just a general statement that..) .. writing in japanese is difficult.

And what's with のが? Smile

Edit: I was looking for some spreadsheet or something similar like that, where the japanese "postposition" are listed with their verbs, i'm talking about sth. like "~に会う" (to meet ~).

I'm so bad at particles - Cranks - 2011-01-23

You can usually Google something like に会う and compare with を会う、が会う、etc. and just look at the number of results. I also usually use the sentence function of denshijishio and write in the verb + particle (sometimes just the verb). It's not exact, but if you can see 20 sentences, I usually can get the usage. Might save you making a deck Wink

P.s., a new idea: Google, lang-8 (search the site) + verb and particle and check other peoples mistakes.　

Example: http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=oAt&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22%E3%81%AB%E4%BC%9A%E3%81%86%22+site%3Alang-8.com&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

"に会う" site:lang-8.com

It's luck of the draw if you can get a good explanation.

I'm so bad at particles - Cranks - 2011-01-23

I recommend with the above looking for entries with English in the search results. I found this:

http://lang-8.com/18746/journals/70754

About half way down the page he explains the difference between と会う and に会う as well as a whole lot of extra information.

Which, I think is super useful.

You can also add something like:

質問：
1. に会う: Can you give me an example? What does this mean?

I get a lot of high level Japanese-English speakers checking my journal, so this sort of thing is ok (1#) You can also PM the correctors that are really good and ask directly - they will probably love the back and forward conversation.

1# I think it's the English translations + I try to add some fun content to my diaries, such as good music videos with lyrics, cut and pastes from ELT websites for phrasal verbs with a bit of a breakdown, or extra examples, etc, and, of course, if they like Skype then that could be a great lead in to having someone really skilled as a Japanese question explainer/coach.

I'm so bad at particles - tenaciousjay - 2011-01-23

I like Naoko Chino's "All About Particles" as well. Particles are still difficult, but it's a great reference book and found the comparisons between は and が useful. Plus I like that it was laid out in order of how frequently that particle is used (for the most part). Lots of great example sentences too.

I'm so bad at particles - nadiatims - 2011-01-24

I think particles become a lot harder for most students than they really need to be because they're usually explained so poorly and in an overly complicated fashion. What needs to be understood about particles, is that they are suffixes that effect the grammatical function of the preceding word, often acting as case markers. は、が、に、を disambiguate subject,object,indirect object, topic, agent etc because these things are not defined by word order as they are english. Word order is fairly fluid in Japanese. quick example sentences:
Tom gave Mary the book.
トムがメーリに本を渡した。
In the English sentence, we know Tom is doing the giving(subject), the book is being given(object) and it's being given to mary (indirect object) because of word order. If the word order was changed the meaning would too. The japanese sentence however could be rearranged:
トムが本をメーリに渡した。
メーリに本をトムが渡した。
メーリにトムが本を渡した。
and the meaning of the sentence is still the same. Granted this sentence could take は instead of が in this sentence depending on context. But my point is that viewing "particle X as going with verb Y" is the wrong way to go about it, is bound to leave you confused when you see a sentence arranged in a different order or omitting one or more grammatical elements of the sentence. The particles should trigger your brain to hold the effected word/phrase in memory in a certain way as you parse the sentence. For example, say you hear the word　リンゴ and then を, your brain should then hold that thought and know that the リンゴ will be the object of transitive verb.
Once this understanding sinks in, particles should pose little trouble.

Another potential cause of much particle confusion is translated example sentences that transform intransative verbs to transitive ones etc.
Eg
日本語がわかる。
I understand Japanese.
I think a lot of beginners will see this sentence and think that suddenly が is marking the object (and I've even seen this nonsense written in grammar guides before) but fail to realise that わかる =/= understand. Understand is a transitive verb. わかる is an intransitive verb meaning something like "to be clear". So when you say 日本語がわかる, you're really saying "Japanese is clear (to me)" (implication: I understand Japanese). Same problem with 好き/like and many others.

I'm so bad at particles - Cranks - 2011-01-24

nadiatims Wrote:The particles should trigger your brain to hold the effected word/phrase in memory in a certain way as you parse the sentence. For example, say you hear the word　リンゴ and then を, your brain should then hold that thought and know that the リンゴ will be the object of transitive verb.
Once this understanding sinks in, particles should pose little trouble.

This is something I have suspected, but never put into words before. I have been reading for about 2 months and I never really considered it as clearly as you have stated it above. Nice post!

I'm so bad at particles - yudantaiteki - 2011-01-24

nadiatims Wrote:Another potential cause of much particle confusion is translated example sentences that transform intransative verbs to transitive ones etc.
Eg
日本語がわかる。
I understand Japanese.
I think a lot of beginners will see this sentence and think that suddenly が is marking the object (and I've even seen this nonsense written in grammar guides before) but fail to realise that わかる =/= understand. Understand is a transitive verb. わかる is an intransitive verb meaning something like "to be clear". So when you say 日本語がわかる, you're really saying "Japanese is clear (to me)" (implication: I understand Japanese). Same problem with 好き/like and many others.

How do you explain 彼が日本語が分かる then? Two subjects for one verb?

I'm so bad at particles - nadiatims - 2011-01-24

I'd say the first が　marks 彼 as the subject of the predicate　日本語が分かる. This is essentially acting as one block, an adjective, and adjectives act as verbs in japanese, so they can be seen as having a grammatical subject (this also explains why it's not necessary to chuck a copula on the end). And 日本語 is the subject of 分かる within the adjectival clause 日本語が分かる.