+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Remembering the Kanji (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-7.html)
+--- Thread: How to use the stories... need help (/thread-696.html)
How to use the stories... need help - Kaass - 2007-08-03
I'm new to RTK and even newer to this forum--just found it today and hope for some big help!
I've just started, I'm up to about 100. I'm having a problem that I want to address now, rather than later. Some kanji's stories I find very simple and easy to imagine with the kanji. Others I struggle with. Below is just one example.
切
The keyword is "cut" . 七 is assigned the meaning of diced. 刀 means dagger. You probably know Heisig's story: "It is hard to think of cutting anything with a knife without imagining one of those skillful Japanese chefs. Only let us say that he has had too much to drink at a party, grabs a dagger lying on the mantelpiece and starts dicing up everything in sight, starting with the hors d'oeuvres and going on to the furniture and the carpets..."
QUESTION: How does that story help me remember 切 ?
In his introduction, he writes: "...the task is to create a composite ideogram. Here is where fantasy and memory come into play. The aim is to shock the mind's eye, to disgust it, to enchant it, to tease it, or to entertain it in any way possible so as to brand it with an image intimately associated with the key word. That image, in turn, inasmuch as it is composed of primitive meanings, will dictate precisely how the kanji is to be penned--stroke for stroke, jot for jot. "
Ok, so I can imagine the story above. A crazy chef running around dicing up everything. I still don't get how that helps me remember 切 "stroke for stroke, jot for jot." What am I missing? Am I making this too difficult? Where does the actual kanji fit into the story?
If the character is 切, should I imagine the dagger that the chef is holding is shaped like 刀 and that as he dices up things around the room, little 七 are flying up into the air, like those sound effects in cartoons or something, and he's shouting "cut cut cut cut cut!!" while doing it?
Please be kind. I'm fairly intelligent in non-kanji-related areas of life.
How to use the stories... need help - CharleyGarrett - 2007-08-03
Here's the way it works for me.
I hear the keyword "cut", and it's a case of "that reminds me of a weird story!" So, it has to be pretty weird, right, for the keyword to make me think of it? I'm usurally carefull to insure that the primatives occur in the story in the order that I would write them, but some people don't care. So, then I tell my self the story, and I come across the word "diced" in the story, and it's like it's in italics, so I write that down. Next, in my story I come to the word "dagger", and it's in italics (in my brain), so I write that down. Now, I've noticed that I still actually see the whole character in advance. That's how I know how big (or how small) I have to write each primative, leaving space for a "road" or a "tree" or something to the left of it, or below it.
That's how it tells me "stroke for stroke". It's also how you don't confuse similar looking kanji, because the story never confuses a "sun" with a "brain" or a "taskmaster" with "walking legs".
How to use the stories... need help - markl11 - 2007-08-03
Well, I am a long-time user of mnemonics in general, but I didn't actually use Heisig to learn kanji - I used other mnemonics/learning techniques prior to finding Heisig's wonderful book. So, I'll give a view on mnemonics and kanji in general, and then perhaps someone more familiar with Heisig's specific mnemonics/techniques can give a more specific view later (sorry if the following is too general/too obvious!):
I would say that mnemonics are often used to give you a quick *reminder* as to what something is, or how something is done. Because the Heisig mnemonic includes allusions to both dice and dagger, when you have associated this mnemonic with the word/meaning 'cut' in your mind, and reinforced that association a number of times, you should be able to immediately bring to mind the Heisig mnemonic whenever you see/hear the word 'cut'. And by seeing that mnemonic play out in your mind, this will trigger you to think, "Aha, the kanji for 'cut' involves the primitives/radicals for 'dice' and 'dagger'". That will allow you to write/recognize the character.
It is, of course, possible to create mnemonics that would even remind you of the specific stroke order of each kanji - but that would be incredibly involved, not really useful, and far too time consuming. So, *as far as I am aware*, Heisig leaves the reader to learn stroke order through writing, but allows the reader to much more importantly remember a simple story that reminds him/her of the *overall* construction of any given character.
I am not sure if the above is what you were looking for, but I hope it helps!
How to use the stories... need help - Katsuo - 2007-08-03
Other peoples' images and stories often (in fact usually) don't work well, and that includes Heisig's. (Heisig explains that he is providing some of his own stories just to illustrate the method, and that your own stories will be more memorable for you.)
As you know, the basic method is that each kanji is given a unique name (keyword), and is made up of distinct parts (primitives). For each kanji you need to somehow associate its name with the parts. To do this you imagine a cartoon-like image or story sequence, focussing on the particular keyword & primitives.
To make the stories memorable it's important to have a strong image/association for each keyword and primitive. These must be your associations.
For example, for the kanji 切 Heisig's story doesn't work for me. He strongly associates the word "cut" with Japanese chefs - but I don't. The first thing that comes to my mind is a film director shouting "Cut!".
Also for "seven" he associates this with "diced", but I don't. For me the first things I associate with "seven" are "Seven-Eleven" (the convenience store chain) and "The Seven Samurai".
"Dagger" is a simple, clear image, and (for me) doesn't need any further associations.
So my story would be something like: "They're filming a remake of the Seven Samurai in my local Seven Eleven, but the samurai are angry because they've only been issued daggers instead of swords. So when Kurosawa (the original director) shouts "Cut!" they cut him into seven pieces using the daggers."
Having filled out the story with detail you then need to focus on the important parts: He was cut by seven daggers.
My story is probably no good for you either. What do you associate with "cut", "seven" and "dagger"?
Kaass Wrote:If the character is 切, should I imagine the dagger that the chef is holding is shaped like 刀 and that as he dices up things around the room, little 七 are flying up into the air?Not usually, no. Primitives like 刀 and 七 come up quite often, so you soon learn to associate them automatically with your chosen image. The basis of Heisig's method is to replace the written squiggles (primitives) with more memorable objects/things, and then build an image/story using those.
How to use the stories... need help - rich_f - 2007-08-03
It may not seem like you'll learn the actual stroke order and how to reproduce the kanji at first, but you need to give it some time. With drilling and repetition, you'll eventually get more comforable with the process of associating a random-seeming pile of squiggles with a crazy visual image/keyword combo in your brain. You just have to keep at it, and give it a chance to sink in. Once you get the hang of it, it really does get easier.
The nice thing about Heisig's approach is that characters are built on previous primitives, and new primitives are usually introduced one at a time. So your memory of how to write the kanji will improve with time as you keep drilling.
Also, if Heisig's stories don't work for you, I agree with the others-- don't use them. In fact, a lot of his stories just didn't work for my warped brain. In fact, when he stops giving out canned stories later in the book, I actually felt it was easier for me to remember things, because I was using stories important to me. I use the stories that others have posted to give me ideas for coming up with my own stories when I'm stuck, and I also use some suggested changes for identifying certain primitives. (I pity the foo who doesn't use Mr. T for person!)
EDIT: Also, the one thing I do is actually take the time to make flash cards. I know a lot of people don't think it's worth the time, but taking the time to write down they keyword, then the story, then write the character based on the story, actually helps me firm it up in my brain. Heisig discusses all of this (oddly) in chapter 5. (Maybe it should've been in chapter 1?)
How to use the stories... need help - yawfosu88 - 2007-08-05
I find that when remembering stories, primitives and keywords it helps if there is some concrete image to draw upon. There a several keywords and some primitives for which this is not easy. For instance the keyword 'cleverness' does not automatically conjure up a dinstinct image for me, maybe of a clever child, but this is not particularly memorable, and I may just remember the image as a child as opposed to a specifically clever one. So to help solve this problem I think of a fox to represent cleverness, because of the saying 'as clever as a fox', so to remember the whole kanji, I think of my mother lying down whilst trying to wrestle a fox from the grip of a taskmaster. Also when I think of a taskmaster, I always think of a particular university tutor called Fidel, which further helps me to remember it.
For almost every primitive, I attach an image of a particular object, or a particular person, and words or primitives that Heisig does not give in this format I manipulate to fit my format, as I find these more memorable.
For example, when Heisig offered the primitive 'each', I felt that no image I could make in my head would sufficiently portray 'each' and rather imagined a particular comedian Ronnie Corbett contorted with his feet in his mouth as a substitute. Some keywords can be particularly tricky, as 'sincerity' as this does not convey a concrete image, but rather describes an intention. So for 'sincerity', I imagine the obscure rapper Sincere, who I'm sure no one here has heard of, but provides a concrete image to which I can attach other primitive images.
A primitive I had particular trouble with was yawn, because when I'm recalling images in my head I often remember where the person is and what kind of person they are, but remembering their actions can be difficult especially with something like a yawn. So I replaced this primitive with the singer 'Sleepy Brown', and instantly improved my recall for these kanji greatly.
Also the primitive 'just so' was often not concrete enough, so I rather picture Rudyard Kipling, author of 'Just So Stories'. For the primitive 'mend', I imagine Luigi of the Mario brothers, because plumbers mend pipes, and for 'determined', I imagine Wario, the determined enemy of the Mario Brothers. For the primitive 'next' which is a combination of the 'ice' and next 'primitive', I imagine Aoi Kiji, a narcoleptic iceman type character who walks around with a sleeping mask in his hair.
This system works for me very well and seems always to help out with tricky primitives.
For me what is easy to remember works in this order (easiest to hardest), : People(faces), animals, places(ie. field, thanskgiving dinner table), objects/, actions (ie, running), words.
I think the reason for this is that, the ability of our brain to remember faces is extremely strong, but words are more difficult to remember, for example how many times have you recognised a person's face (THE IMAGE), but not been able to remember their name (THE WORD). Also, I saw a documentary recently that concluded that a prolific chessplayer used the facial perception part of their brain when looking at a chessboard, as opposed to seeing it merely as a series of object, but rather recognised different chess piece scenarios like the faces of old friends, and as a result could quickly respond intuitively to different scenarios in the game.
How to use the stories... need help - synewave - 2007-08-05
yawfosu88 Wrote:I saw a documentary recently that concluded that a prolific chessplayer used the facial perception part of their brain when looking at a chessboard, as opposed to seeing it merely as a series of object, but rather recognised different chess piece scenarios like the faces of old friends, and as a result could quickly respond intuitively to different scenarios in the game.That sounds like a pretty interesting programme. Do you remember what it's called? Perhaps I can get it off UKNova.
How to use the stories... need help - Kaass - 2007-08-05
Thank you SO much to everyone who has shared their advice. (If you have some advice and haven't yet posted it, please do!). Like you, wzafran, I had read Heisig's instructions and still felt confused. And in the beginning, when he alluded to more instructions in later chapters, I found and skipped ahead to those as well (Lessons 5 & 11--I, too, am not sure why he doesn't just put all of this info at the beginning!). But anyway, I still couldn't get it.
I think the most important thing I learned from everyone here is that the story helps you to remember which primitives are associated with that kanji. I'm sure Heisig said this in his book (please, no one tell me which page, I already feel a little stupid...), but I think it was a case of "can't see the forest for the trees" or something. I was getting lost in the details and missed that very important point. Also, it was good to know that I don't have to do this [ex. the dagger that the chef is holding is shaped like 刀]...
Here are some other useful things I learned that will work with my learning style and brain (and just as I was finishing up this post, I lost it for some reason and had to write it all over again, so I think I know it really well now!!) And I'm quoting some people directly here--I hope you don't mind--thank you for your great words!
1. If Heisig's stories don't work for you, don't use them.
2. Each kanji is given a unique name (keyword) and is made up of distinct parts (primitives). Imagine a cartoon-like image or story sequence to associate its name with the parts.
3. To make the stories memorable it's important to have a strong image/association for each keyword and primitive. These must be your associations. You should be able to immediately bring to mind the story whenever you see/hear the keyword. And by seeing that keyword play out in your mind, this will trigger you to think, "Aha, the kanji for '~' involves the primitives for '~' and '~' ". That will allow you to write/recognize the character. Stroke order will also be learned/remembered through writing and review.
4. Relate your story to the first thing that comes to mind when you hear that keyword. Use a picture, a person's face, music or an artist, a sentence or saying, a pun--whatever works for you to create a story to help you remember that keyword and those primitives with it. Create images inside your head, and memorize them. The advantage of imaginative memory is that you can manipulate images however you wish inside your head in order to make them more memorable.
5. Write down your stories, or jot down a few notes at least.
6. The primitives occur in the story in the order that you write them in the kanji (maybe it's not necessary for everyone but I think it is for me).
7. If you work hard enough on your image now, there'll be no need for you to work again on it later, and since it's 'glued' itself to your head much more strongly, it'll 'disappear' less easily.
8. Don't worry about the 'how' too much, just keep going at it and over time you'll get a feel of what works for you. With drilling and repetition, you'll eventually get more comforable with the process of associating a random-seeming pile of squiggles with a crazy visual image/keyword combo in your brain. You just have to keep at it, and give it a chance to sink in. Once you get the hang of it, it really does get easier.
I'm sure I'll return to this thread (and this site) as other tips start to make more sense to me the more I progress through this book. Thank you again!
How to use the stories... need help - johnzep - 2007-08-05
As far as ordering the kanji, I try to put the primitives in the order that they are written. But I also try to maintain a natural sounding sentence
An example:
析 --> Chop = tree + ax
1) I chopped down the tree using an ax.
2) Using an ax, I chopped down a tree.
I generally try to write my stories like the first example. It is more a more natural sounding sentence and it keeps the primitives in order
But sometimes it really doesn't matter because after a while you'll start to get a feel for which primitives usually go in a particular spot. For example the tree primitive is often on the left...so in other cases 困 床 梨 it can be helpful to make note of ordering in your stories
How to use the stories... need help - yawfosu88 - 2007-08-06
James Wrote:That sounds like a pretty interesting programme. Do you remember what it's called? Perhaps I can get it off UKNova.It was called 'My Brilliant Brain', and was part of a three- part series. The first one is about a child prodigy pianist, with the subtext of genius being affected by pushiness of parents, the ability to create genius.
The second episode is the chess player episode, the first female grandmaster and how her brain works, she doesn't take time to think over her moves but acts almost immediately based on face perception.
The third episode is about savants, people with extraordinary genius coupled simultaneously with a mental disability, especially severe social unease. Also, it deals with whether savantism can be artificially created using electromagnetic pulses and concludes that a lot of great calculating and artistic abilities are due rather to inaction in the brain than action, ie. our normally functioning brain deliberately discards detailed information, when we look at a landscape we can see every detail in that glance and our brain has processed all the information, but in order that we don't get obsessed with the details of every day life, our brain deliberately discards this information and conveys to us the edited version or gist of what we see. The same goes for maths calculations, we apparently all have an innate ability to make massively complex calculations, and remember details photographically but this often comes at the price of brain inactivity which would deny us other brain functions that are not detail driven such as social interaction and the understanding of puns and other jokes.
A professor in the documentary suggests that one day mankind may develop a 'thinking cap' (electromagnetic helmet and chair, prototype looks fairly dangerous and makes your teeth click) that temporarily induces savantism and would allow us induce photographic memories for studying and could become the dominant form of learning in developed countries. It would definitely have implications for the studying of kanji, amongst almost every other field of knowledge.
I find savantism really fascinating. I saw another documentary (can't remember the name of this one) where a savant learned how to speak the language in Iceland in 7days, and it apparently is a language extremely different from others in the way it is spoken. Also the fact that it is due to brain inactivity allowing other parts of the brain to compensate, which means we are potentially all capable of such feats. He also had a distinct image or 'primitive' for every number, ie 6 was a void, 9 was tall or huge, something else was a tree and so on and he using this system since early childhood, not being taught he learned pi to hundreds of decimal places and describes it as a particularly beautiful landscape. Some experimenters tried to see whether he would notice them changing a few digits in pi with literally hundreds of decimal places without telling him they had done it, and as he began to read through it his heart began to race and he got really emotional, shouting 'What have you done? You've made it ugly'. They had inadvertently put holes in his landscape where they weren't supposed to be and messed and rocks in the wrong places and so on. I saw this documentary a long while ago before knowing about Heisig, but the RTK1 system seems incredibly similar to what this savant uses with numbers. They also showed a Japanese cram school where kids are tought to use a mental abacus to make calculations to decimal place exceeding literally faster than they can actually write it.
My Brilliant Brain Episode 1 (7 YEAR OLD KID CAN PLAY PIANO WITH HIS BACK TO IT, FROM MEMORY)
http://
My Brilliant Brain Episode 2 (THIS IS THE EPISODE SYNEWAVE WANTED)
http://
Danie Tammet- amazing savant guy, clip of where they test him on pi, + japanese cram school scene- (THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING CLIP! IF YOU WATCH ONE WATCH THIS ONE)
http://
Stephen Wiltshire draws Tokyo panorama from memory after 1 helicopter ride
http://
(IF YOU ACTUALLY LIVE IN TOKYO, YOU WILL WANT TO WATCH THIS ONE, A GUY DRAWS IT FROM MEMORY ON HIS FIRST VISIT)
How to use the stories... need help - synewave - 2007-08-06
Thanks for the info. Downloading now!
Yeah, I saw that programme about the number/colour savant guy too. Fascinating stuff.
How to use the stories... need help - RoboTact - 2007-08-06
Kaass Wrote:QUESTION: How does that story help me remember 切 ?Main idea is that it's easier to remember abstract 'story' that enables arbitrary content than to remember severely restrained thing such as collection of primitive writings.
How to use the stories... need help - Megaqwerty - 2007-08-06
yawfosu88 Wrote:My Brilliant Brain Episode 1 (7 YEAR OLD KID CAN PLAY PIANO WITH HIS BACK TO IT, FROM MEMORY)Haven't watched this, but it's probably a lot less being a savant than it simply being a matter of how much you don't care about your wrists.
http://
How to use the stories... need help - yawfosu88 - 2007-08-06
That kid isn't a savant, he's just a genius. Savants, by definition, have to be in some way mentally disabled and he isn't. Yh, he actually wears special gloves for his wrists and fingers funny enough.:lol: