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using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Printable Version

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using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Miyumera - 2010-12-12

Hi, I've been working only with RTK1 and was wondering if anyone has tried doing RTK1 along with RTK2 at the same time? Or do most people just finish RTK1 first and then move on the second volume? I know study methods for each person are different but I'm just getting some opinions about what other people have tried, or think is better and more efficient.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Miyumera - 2010-12-12

I"m thinking of doing them at the same time so that I can at least read some japanese in the meantime while I learn 3000 kanji lol

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - truando - 2010-12-12

Don't do it. The task is already overwhelming. Keep it as simple as possible.

Divide and conquer!

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-12

I don't think it's possible to use RTK 1 and 2 at the same time. You should be able to do RTK 1 + learning readings as well (you can see other threads on the forum that have ideas for doing that), but RTK 2 assumes knowledge of all the kanji in RTK 1 and won't really work that well if you haven't finished the first book.

You might also want to look into the various "RTK lite" ideas, which have you using RTK to learn only 1000 (or even fewer) kanji; you can then either abandon RTK altogether or go back and learn the ones you skipped later (while you're doing other stuff).

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Teskal - 2010-12-12

I would do RTK Lite and try the steps from Kanjidamage dot com.

Using special Words for ON-Readings in the Story.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Tori-kun - 2010-12-12

@Miyumera: I must agree with truando.. Where is the sense behind Heisig's method then, when using both parallely at the same time?! It's waste of time, believe it. One task, namely getting the writing and meaning of each kanji into your mind, is already difficult and overloading enough. がんばってねぇ。

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Miyumera - 2010-12-12

lol.. such a resounding NO.

I was under the impression that RTK II was arranged in a way that didn't require the reader to go in a specific order...I don't have the book so I assumed it meant that it each lesson corresponded to the lessons in RTKI. But if it assumes i know all 2000 then I suppose it won't work and yeah I can see how it can be overwhelming.

thanks for the input!

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Splatted - 2010-12-12

I don't own RTK2, so I can't comment on that, but I think it's a good a idea to study additional things while going through RTK. For me, this is more about enjoying myself and avoiding burnout than being more efficient, but I think it probably is. If you know some Japanese you can start to do things in Japanese, or get more out of what you do anyway. For example, if you watch Japanese dramas then learning some common words/simple grammar will allow you to get alot out of it. Since language requires skill as well as knowledge, I think it is well worth starting to practice things now.

What I'm doing is study the core 6000 from SmartFM in RTK order (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5091&page=1), but I would still reccomend learning the really common words first. You could also try http://drmoviemethod.blogspot.com/ ,which is a technique for learning the onyomi along with the Kanji.

Whatever you do though, I think you should make sure that you can continue RTK regardless of how progress in your other studies. I believe this is the important part of the divide and conquer approach, rather than abstinence.

I feel I should probably make sure it's clear that I'm still doing RTK. I'm currently on 1211, and have been studying for almost 2 months. Edit: I meant I have been studying RTK for almost 2 months. I have been studying Japanese for quite a lot longer.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-12

Miyumera Wrote:lol.. such a resounding NO.

I was under the impression that RTK II was arranged in a way that didn't require the reader to go in a specific order...I don't have the book so I assumed it meant that it each lesson corresponded to the lessons in RTKI. But if it assumes i know all 2000 then I suppose it won't work and yeah I can see how it can be overwhelming.
!
Most of the book is devoted to learning on-yomi, and it's primarily done by grouping together kanji that have a part showing the reading (i.e. 招, 昭, 召, and others all read as ショウ). Because of this, the kanji aren't organized by frequency or by RTK 1 order -- they're organized by the sound-showing elements and how reliable they are in the kanji.

(Then I feel like in the kun-yomi section he just sort of hand-waves; I don't think I've ever seen anyone use his method for learning them. It seems to me that most learners don't have much trouble learning the kun-yomi anyway.)

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Miyumera - 2010-12-12

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Miyumera Wrote:lol.. such a resounding NO.

I was under the impression that RTK II was arranged in a way that didn't require the reader to go in a specific order...I don't have the book so I assumed it meant that it each lesson corresponded to the lessons in RTKI. But if it assumes i know all 2000 then I suppose it won't work and yeah I can see how it can be overwhelming.
!
Most of the book is devoted to learning on-yomi, and it's primarily done by grouping together kanji that have a part showing the reading (i.e. 招, 昭, 召, and others all read as ショウ). Because of this, the kanji aren't organized by frequency or by RTK 1 order -- they're organized by the sound-showing elements and how reliable they are in the kanji.

(Then I feel like in the kun-yomi section he just sort of hand-waves; I don't think I've ever seen anyone use his method for learning them. It seems to me that most learners don't have much trouble learning the kun-yomi anyway.)
What is on-yomi and kun-yomi? When you say that you've never seen anyone use his method, is that a bad thing and I should worry? yet you say that most people learn kun-yomi...

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Miyumera - 2010-12-12

@Splatted. wow thanks for the links! and congrats on your 1200 characters

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Splatted - 2010-12-12

On-yomi is the chinese reading, and is generally used in compounds. Kun-yomi is the Japanese reading, and is usually used when the kanji is a word on it's own.

Sorry I don't have time to give more detail.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - yukamina - 2010-12-13

Miyumera Wrote:What is on-yomi and kun-yomi? When you say that you've never seen anyone use his method, is that a bad thing and I should worry? yet you say that most people learn kun-yomi...
People use RTK2 for learning on-yomi, but, like yudan said, I don't know anyone who uses the kun-yomi section.

I did combine RTK1 and 2 to make a sort of merged list, basically RTK1 with branching for phonetic groups. The list is on paper (plus many vocab lists on quizlet), though, and I don't know how useful it would be for other people. I used it for review and vocab study.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-13

My problem with the kunyomi section is that it seems to ignore the fact that kun-yomi are actual words -- making each syllable of a kunyomi have some mnemonic seems pointless to me. I can understand a systematic learning of the on-yomi because most of them aren't standalone words and you can take advantage of the phonetic components, but for the kun-yomi, if you just learn Japanese words then you can deal with most of them just via the English keywords you already know from RTK 1.

He wants you to learn that 墓 is read はか by associating は with "tooth" and か with "mosquito" and then stringing those together in a story that incorporates "grave", "tooth", and "mosquito". But isn't it simpler just to learn that the Japanese word for "grave" is はか? Learning vocabulary does not have the same type of difficulty as learning the characters. Has anyone ever actually tried this?

But to sum up if you are still confused: It is possible to use RTK 1 and learn the readings of kanji at the same time. However, you cannot do this with RTK 2. RTK 2 requires completion of RTK 1, so if you want to learn the readings while doing RTK 1, you'll have to use a different book or method.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Katsuo - 2010-12-13

yukamina Wrote:People use RTK2 for learning on-yomi, but, like yudan said, I don't know anyone who uses the kun-yomi section.
The chapter on kun-yomi says the method outlined is intended only for particular words that you are having problems remembering, i.e. not as a general learning strategy for kun-vocabulary. I occasionally use a similar technique to make difficult words stick, but mostly for all-kana words, especially onomatopoeia (see Nukemarine's thread).

E.g. じっくり = slowly & carefully. Mnemonic: If you had じ (hemorrhoids) the size of くり (chestnuts), you would move slowly & carefully. Dropping the っ doesn't matter: the mnemonic gets you near enough to trigger the memory.


Miyumera Wrote:I was under the impression that RTK II was arranged in a way that didn't require the reader to go in a specific order
It is, but it also presumes you have completed RTK1.
Miyumera Wrote:I don't have the book so I assumed it meant that it each lesson corresponded to the lessons in RTKI.
Occasionally you find a short sequence of kanji (maybe 2 to 5) that are the same order in both volumes, but mostly they are dotted all over the place.

P.S. For anyone who is using RTK2, I made a spreadsheet containing cross-reference numbers to RTK1 to make searching faster.

using Book 1 and II at the same time? anyone? - Miyumera - 2010-12-13

Ah ok. the kun-yomi section does sound kind of complicated. But yeah probably better to just use it when necessary. Thanks Katsuo for the spreadsheet.