+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: General discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: The AJATT Method (/thread-682.html)
The AJATT Method - alantin - 2007-10-20
Calchas Wrote:EDIT: as a side note once I started trying this AJATT "method" by watching tons of Japanese TV (I Just leave TV Japan on all day or watch a few movies sans subtitles) I noticed one day that I could finally speak the Japanese "R". It was kinda strange I could just say it right and now I wonder how come I couldn't get it before its so easy.That's a great example of how, when you get enough input, output comes as a side effect.
I used a year listening constantly to Swedish audio books and a side effect was a heavily Swedish(ish) accent! Someone mistook me for a finnish-swedish person even though my Swedish really still sucks!!
The AJATT Method - nac_est - 2007-10-20
Hello
I agree perfectly with dilandau23. It may seem to somebody that the AJATT site is just a list of "instructions", and that simply following those steps blindly will magically make you fluent in Japanese. But it's not like that, imho.
What Khatzumoto's trying to convey (and I think he's doing it quite well, even though it's really hard) is the APPROACH, the PHILOSOPHY he used while learning. It's not about performing an action exactly by following some rules (which he couldn't have done since he was inventing, or perfecting, the method on the way), but to dive into a river of Japanese input. More importantly, to have fun with it and never be scared of the supposed difficulty of the language.
"Sentence mining", like Khatzumoto himself admitted at some point, is not a good name for the concept he's proposing (again, in my opinion). You shouldn't set out with the goal to find sentences "because you have to". Let sentences find you!
If you do "all japanese all the time", you constantly encounter words, sentences and kanji that you WANT to understand, and you think "damn, it'd be awesome if I could read that!" or "that word comes out so often, I could really gain a lot of understanding if I learned it. Cool!". When that happens, and only then, you know that you have found something worth digging and "SRSsing" for. It's gonna be REALLY fun and when, later, you find the same word or sentence and you are able to understand it... it's a huge satisfaction. So a better expression could be "sentence fishing"? "Sentence dating"? I dunno
As for input before output... Khatz never said "don't you dare speak or write! You'll get a curse that will stop your Japanese learning for eternity!". Actually, in one post (I'm lazy right now, but if you want me to find these posts say so and I'll look for them) he told about a Korean-Japanese friend with whom he always spoke. Why did he do that, if it's "input before output"? Because that friend constantly corrected his mistakes, mercilessly.
So the concept is: if you go and start speaking and writing naively when you are still a beginner, you'll probably get more harm than good, since you'll probably make, and get used to, mistakes without even realizing it. But if you are very careful, aware of your possible mistakes, and have someone who can correct your errors before it's too late, than great! It's even BETTER than shutting down all output! Again, one should concentrate on the philosophy, the "why" a method works. The "how" is relatively unimportant, and you can even change it as you prefer.
Those were my thoughts on the matter. I'm sorry if I said obvious stuff!
Also, nice to meet you all, this is my first post!
The AJATT Method - lindacrisan - 2007-11-06
I found this:
http://eow.alc.co.jp/
A site for Japanese learning English. The reason it's useful to us is: the dictionary look-up method. You enter a Japanese (or English) word, and the results are anything from words to expressions to sentences. Quite useful this.
For example, for おっかない you might get:
土俵の上の屋根って何でつるしてんだろ？何かおっかないよね。絶対落ちてこないのかな？
How do they hang that big roof above the dohyo? It looks kind of scary, doesn't it? I wonder if it has ever fallen down?
The AJATT Method - yorkii - 2007-11-06
Linda, ALC is probably known by most people on the board and there has been numerous posts about whether to trust the translations on there. For the example you have provided us with, I see no problems. But if you go from English to Japanese, you will find a lot of the time a DIRECT translation which is very un-Japanese. Something to be aware of. Other than that, I too think ALC is a great resource.
The AJATT Method - lindacrisan - 2007-11-06
OK, I hadn't tried the English-Japanese search. Thanks for the heads up.
The AJATT Method - vosmiura - 2007-11-14
Has anyone got the Assimil JWE sentences copied out to put in an SRS?
The AJATT Method - Proxx - 2007-12-12
Anybody knows something about the reliability of the "Kanji Sonomama Rakubiki Jiten" (Nintendo DS Kanji Programm) example sentences?
I showed some of them to a japanese native speaker, and she said she wouldn't say it that way. So I'm a little bit curious if it's a good idea to use them. But maybe that's quite normal for dictionary entries to sound sometimes strange... I don't know. What do you think?
The AJATT Method - revenantkioku - 2007-12-13
Look up a few words in an English dictionary. I wouldn't say most of things that way. Remember, there is a difference between wrong and what people say. Rakubiki uses Genius, which if I'm not mistaken is a quite respected dictionary.
The AJATT Method - ファブリス - 2007-12-13
Hey Proxx if you have any doubts look up the Nintendo DS topic (search forum), there's got to be a link there to the product's page. I think it includes even more than one dictionary.
There's one thing really silly about Nintendo though, if you look up "bad" words, a lot of them seem to be censored. The same happens in a title for practicing English that I tried recently.
The AJATT Method - revenantkioku - 2007-12-13
It has 英和、和英 and 国語. It really is immensely useful. And affordable!
The AJATT Method - Proxx - 2007-12-16
thanks, so I think I can trust it
The AJATT Method - cracky - 2007-12-16
vosmiura Wrote:Has anyone got the Assimil JWE sentences copied out to put in an SRS?That would be pretty useful for me too, I've been way too lazy about entering in the sentences. I finished the passive phase months ago but I've only put like 40 lessons into my deck.
The AJATT Method - revenantkioku - 2007-12-17
I've been trying this sentences method, but it's just not working for me.
Well, actually it's not working for me because the overhead is ridiculous. Finding, inputting, and even feeling okay about the sentences I'm using is wearing me out. It's taking away the fun of playing games or reading books. Reviewing them is even more frustrating because I read the sentence out loud, look at the answer and then go "Wait, did I get it right? Did I make a mistake?" I can't even remember!
Instead, I've been putting Heisig's words from RtK2 into Genius and speed drilling them while continuing to read, play games and watch TV. It's only been a week since I started doing this, but we'll see how things go.
The AJATT Method - JimmySeal - 2007-12-17
@revenantkioku
That's precisely the issue I take with AJATT. I agree with most everything else on the site, but collecting sentences is an exhausting waste of time.
Just get a lot of input and you will learn. No need to collect thousands of sentences.
The AJATT Method - dilandau23 - 2007-12-17
JimmySeal, this is as good a time as any to ask what do you put in your SRS? I have actually always wondered because I know you are a proponent of just picking the meaning for things up as you read. I usually only put things that I want to learn (or should have learned a long time ago). Sometimes those take the form of a sentences and other times they could be a single word.
@revenantkioku
Are you trying to put every sentence that you come across in a game or from a book? That would seem a bit tedious. I have no idea what you can do to make it more fun as I don't really learn through immersion, but I did read this on the AJATT site some time ago.
The AJATT Method - revenantkioku - 2007-12-17
I'd just put a sentence in here and there. I tried shooting for 20 a day, 10 a day or even 5. It's just exhausting.
Perhaps it's because I'm at a level where my main issue is vocab. Nine classes in college and I have a solid grasp on grammar structure. So when I see sentences it's just vocab that I don't know half the time.
Now, seeing them in proper context is good. So instead of looking them up in J-E dictionaries I'm doing J-J. That's helping. And I'm really pushing the input. That is also helping. But as far as SRS goes, it's Kanji (RtK1) and compound readings (RtK2).
SRS is fundamentally boring, so I want it to be as fast as possible. I wondered at first how grinding readings would be, but it's surprisingly helpful for me. Plus, I'm someone who is bad with freedom. So using a structured plan for the readings is helping me.
I'm reading the first Harry Potter in Japanese. I read it out loud to myself as I go along. I'm wondering if I just keep reading, just keep hearing if that should be enough. SRSing kanji writing and kanji compounds should ease myself into being able to read more.
The AJATT Method - billyclyde - 2007-12-18
What I like about the sentence method is how it reflect language processing. I think the brain chunks language and infers based on what it already knows, rather than parsing. So rather than:
Textbook: What are you doing today?
It's heard & processed as:
Actual: Whadryu doon tday?
And I've noticed I don't listen in English so much as infer & anticipate. That said, inputting tons of text is too much labor. If there's a phrase or grammar point I don't know I put it in my vocab SRS, but otherwise I agree with Jimmyseal that lots of reading & listening input is the key. The key to sentences is not the SRS so much as the context and the connections in memory built from that context.
The AJATT Method - Ramchip - 2008-01-22
Someone just posted this website for sentences on AJATT:
http://wwwcyg.utc.fr/tatoeba/?home
It's a multilingual corpus. Most japanese examples are from Tanaka, so the usual reserve applies, but I can say the french translations were good.
The AJATT Method - ghinzdra - 2008-02-06
I will be through RTK1 by the end of the week and I ve taken a close look at the numerous post on the topic and also to the topic essential ressource . Nobody really answers to that mere question : " what dictionnary can i really use for sentence exemple with the AJATT method ?"
I understand the philosophy of AJATT method and I don't intend to cram :thus I started to read Kochikame which as far as I'm concerned is the best manga for beginner (very popular , quite easy , funny and on top of that using a very casual japanese :hikaru no go or berserk are great but the vocabulary used is too specific.) and I can rip out the manga of very useful sentences . But I have also traditionnal courses at the Yamasa institute , we have list of vocabulary and I'd like to have sentences example for every and each of the words for all the reasons Khatzu pointed out. For sure I could ask to my sensei about providing me sentences or at least checking those I've found but it's too much time demanding for them . I mean now and then why not but on a regular basis it's totally impossible .
But the Jim breen's dictionnary for instance is said to be totally useless for this purpose (to quote the very website itself : it cannot be regarded as containing natural or representative examples of text in either language.). So it appears to me that a monojapanese dictionnary is required for this purpose . Khatzu talks about 3 of them : sanseido , goo and yahoo dictionnary . The first one doesn't seem to provide any sentence exemple (maybe I don't know how to use it properly yet) and I'm not sure about the 2 others.
So considering that the dictionnary I'm looking for would only be used for giving me sentences from a mere word which one do you really recommand ? if I have to always worry about if it's representative or not then it's useless.
The AJATT Method - zazen666 - 2008-02-06
It's not a dictionary, but I like Kanji Odessy 2001.
http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/e-2001kanji.html
sample page:
http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/2001kanji/pb/maintext1-r.html
The AJATT Method - nac_est - 2008-02-06
I've been using Yahoo in the past, and it does have lots of example sentences. Now I'm using Sanseido; I only use it for the definitions, but there are some example sentences too (they come after an upside-down black triangle). However, they are quite short... they're expressions, rather than full sentences. I don't know about the other webdics.
Otherwise you can use a paper dictionary. I have the "furigana Japanese-English/ English-Japanese dictionaries" that have a lot of example sentences (for which I don't have verification, though). Now, I'm using the monolingual チャレンジ小学国語辞典 which was recommended on the AJATT site. It's amazing for the sentences method because 95% of the words have at least one nice and juicy sentence for every different meaning of the word. Moreover, the sentences are fairly simple, so they are great for beginners. Every kanji has furigana.
Link to the dictionary
Link to the related AJATT article
The AJATT Method - ghinzdra - 2008-02-06
really nice ....
-but to what extent can I trust yahoo ? I mean is it REALLY japanese for japanese or japanese for westerners ? if it's something like the tanaka corpus which is huge and thorough but tremendously incorrect then I'm not interested.
- can you give me links to words that display sentence in the sanseido dictionnary : I didn't found any of them. Either it was red triangle or it was black triangle but it always seem to me as definition rather than example
just one exemple : yaru 遣る
〈五〉 （１） 行かせる． ▼使いを～ （２） 与える． ▼えさを～ ＊同等以下に使う．／目上には「あげる」． （３） 行なう． ▼勉強を～／一杯～（＝酒をのむ） （４） ｛△殺る｝ 殺す． （５） （補動） （「?て～」の形で）他のために?する． ▼送って～ （６） （補動） （「?て～」の形で）?してみせる． ▼なぐって～
-about the paper dictionnary
the thing is i'm a bit reluctant to write everything... Let's say that I'm a bit lazy or want to spare my time ... But if the sentences are really great then I could go for it . So just how great are they ? especially , even if they're obviously genuine japanese sentences since they're designed for japanese children , to what extent can you really use them ? aren't they a bit childish , inappropriate , or anything which would seem off to a japanese ?
and as I want to start as quick as I can and that I'm not sure to find the book on the spot do you know any other dictionnary for japanese child ?
The AJATT Method - rich_f - 2008-02-06
We discussed something similar in this thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1165
Long Story Short: dilandau23 points out that excite.co.jp's dictionary is based on:
新和英中辞典(新英和中辞典)
by Kenkyusha. Might be useful for you, as it's chock full of example sentences, and you don't have to pay to use it. And since it's Kenkyusha, you know that the sentences will be grammatically correct.
The AJATT Method - Jarvik7 - 2008-02-06
Also, if you have a Mac there is an excellent built in J-J, J-E dictionary.
Here is an example of the J-E:
やる【遣る】
1 〔送る，行かせる〕send
医者を呼びにやった｜We sent for a doctor.
秘書をやって書類を取って来させた｜He sent his secretary for the papers.
2人の息子を大学へやるのは大変だった｜It was not easy for him to send his two sons to college.
時計は直しにやってあります｜My watch has been sent to be repaired.
娘を弁護士のところへ嫁にやった｜He married his daughter to a lawyer.
2 〔他の場所へ移す〕
辞書をどこへやった｜Where did you put the dictionary?
3 〔向ける〕turn
彼の方に顔をやった｜She turned toward(s) him.
入ってきた男に目をやった｜I looked at the man who had come in.
4 〔進ませる〕
車に乗り込むと，急いでやってくれと運転手に頼んだ｜I got into the cab and asked the driver to drive fast.
5 〔与える〕give
金魚にえさをやりましたか｜Have you fed [given food to] the goldfish?
あの子にお駄賃をいくらやったらいいだろうか｜How much shall I [give the boy as a reward / pay the boy] for his trouble?
死んでもおまえにやるものは何もないよ｜I've nothing to leave you when I die.
欲しかったらみんなやるよ｜You can have them all if you want them.
毎朝植木に水をやる｜I water the plants every morning.
6 〔行う〕do
やるべきことはちゃんとやりなさい｜Always do what you [are supposed / have] to do.
よくやったね｜Well done!
今宿題をやっている｜He is doing his homework now.
やってみたらどうですか｜How about trying it?
どんどんやれ｜Go on [ahead]! / ｟口｠ Go to it!
うん，やっているね｜You are really going hard at it, aren't you?
チェスをやろう｜Let's play chess.
この役は誰がやるのか｜Who will play this part?
3日もあればやれるでしょう｜I think I can finish it in three days.
ドイツ語を週2回やっている｜I take lessons in German twice a week.
大学では数学をやりました〔専攻した〕｜｟米国用法｠ I majored in mathematics at the university. / ｟英国用法｠ I read for a degree in mathematics at the university.
あいつならやりかねない｜I wouldn't put anything past him.
7 〔開催する〕hold; 〔上演する〕stage
その展覧会はいつやるのですか｜When will the exhibition be held?
明日から歌舞伎座で「忠臣蔵」をやります｜Chushingura will be staged at the Kabukiza beginning tomorrow.
あの映画館で『風と共に去りぬ』をやっている｜Gone with the Wind [is showing / is on] now at that theater.
8 〔経営する〕keep, run; 〔従事する〕｟文語｠ be engaged ｟in｠
父は薬屋をやっています｜My father keeps [runs] a drugstore.
何の商売をやっている人か｜What does he do? / What line of business is he in?
弁護士［医者］をやっている｜He practices law [medicine].
9 〔飲む，食う〕
まあ，一杯おやりなさい｜Well, how [what] about a drink? / Won't you have a drink?
酒もたばこもやりません｜I neither drink nor smoke.
10 〔暮らす〕
そんなわずかな収入ではやっていけない｜We can't live [get along] on such a scanty income.
新しい同僚となんとかうまくやっているらしい｜She seems to be getting along all right with her new colleagues.
11 〔「?してやる」の形で，他人のために行う〕
子供たちに本を読んでやった｜He read a book for [to] the children.
面白い話を聞かせてやろう｜I have an interesting story to tell you.
子供をいすに掛けさせてやった｜He helped the child onto a chair.
そいつをたたき出してやれ｜Throw him out.
好きなようにさせてやれ｜Let him do as he likes.
12 〔積極的にする〕
絶対に優勝してやる｜I intend to win no matter what.
The AJATT Method - nac_est - 2008-02-06
ghinzdra Wrote:really nice ....From what I've heard, some of the sentences in the J-E part are not totally native-like. That's why I've stopped using it. But I think there is no problem with the sentences for the J-J.
-but to what extent can I trust yahoo ? I mean is it REALLY japanese for japanese or japanese for westerners ? if it's something like the tanaka corpus which is huge and thorough but tremendously incorrect then I'm not interested.
ghinzdra Wrote:- can you give me links to words that display sentence in the sanseido dictionnary : I didn't found any of them. Either it was red triangle or it was black triangle but it always seem to me as definition rather than exampleIt's those after the black triangles. They are not definitions, but as I said, they're more like expressions than example sentences. Still, you could use some of them.
just one exemple : yaru 遣る
〈五〉 （１） 行かせる． ▼使いを～ （２） 与える． ▼えさを～ ＊同等以下に使う．／目上には「あげる」． （３） 行なう． ▼勉強を～／一杯～（＝酒をのむ） （４） ｛△殺る｝ 殺す． （５） （補動） （「?て～」の形で）他のために?する． ▼送って～ （６） （補動） （「?て～」の形で）?してみせる． ▼なぐって～
ghinzdra Wrote:-about the paper dictionnaryRegarding that particular dictionary I linked, and from what I can assess with my limited skills, they are normal sentences. There is only one simplification: only the ~1000 kanji that are studied in 小学 are displayed, while the words that use the more advanced kanji are written in hiragana. Still, if you input them using the IME, you can still display them with the correct Chinese characters, if you want.
the thing is i'm a bit reluctant to write everything... Let's say that I'm a bit lazy or want to spare my time ... But if the sentences are really great then I could go for it . So just how great are they ? especially , even if they're obviously genuine japanese sentences since they're designed for japanese children , to what extent can you really use them ? aren't they a bit childish , inappropriate , or anything which would seem off to a japanese ?
and as I want to start as quick as I can and that I'm not sure to find the book on the spot do you know any other dictionnary for japanese child ?
Don't know anything about a web-dic for children, sorry.