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+--- Thread: The AJATT Method (/thread-682.html)
The AJATT Method - mentat_kgs - 2009-05-07
canned dialogue! this thread is full of it!
The AJATT Method - vosmiura - 2009-05-07
Quote:Besides, what does readings have to do with typing? Pronunciation never matters when we type in other (European) languages. Using the same argument for English, we should be using a layout with the International Phonetic Alphabet. I imagine it would be something like this:We don't write phonetically, but we do spell. Typing muscle memory is something that comes after you've correctly typed (spelled) something many times over. I think the point made earlier is, isn't it a lot more useful to practice spelling Japanese than practice a code that has no relevance outside of typing on a keyboard?
The AJATT Method - Pauline - 2009-05-07
vosmiura Wrote:T-code is essentially no different from qwerty, dvorak, colemak etc. only that all available characters are typed with two keys and there are a lot more characters. Knowing where the letters are placed on a layout have no relevance outside of typing on a keyboard and does not help with spelling, but it definitively helps when typing.Quote:Besides, what does readings have to do with typing? Pronunciation never matters when we type in other (European) languages. Using the same argument for English, we should be using a layout with the International Phonetic Alphabet. I imagine it would be something like this:We don't write phonetically, but we do spell. Typing muscle memory is something that comes after you've correctly typed (spelled) something many times over. I think the point made earlier is, isn't it a lot more useful to practice spelling Japanese than practice a code that has no relevance outside of typing on a keyboard?
About practicing spelling Japanese. How can typing kiru<enter> be more helpful when practicing spelling 切る than just typing 切る? Especially since I also can get the options 着る, 斬る, 伐る and キル. 切る is spelled 切る; the same word can also be written きる, but then the correct spelling is きる not 切る. For English that would be equivalent to saying that knowing the pronunciation helps me spelling to, too and two correctly.
The AJATT Method - Tobberoth - 2009-05-07
Pauline Wrote:About practicing spelling Japanese. How can typing kiru<enter> be more helpful when practicing spelling 切る than just typing 切る? Especially since I also can get the options 着る, 斬る, 伐る and キル. 切る is spelled 切る; the same word can also be written きる, but then the correct spelling is きる not 切る. For English that would be equivalent to saying that knowing the pronunciation helps me spelling to, too and two correctly.Everytime you write 殺害 for example, you train that 殺 is read さつ, that 害 is read がい. That's good training, that's exposure. That means, every time you write Japanese, you are actively training it, you can't write without knowing the readings so you are forced to remember them. That's a good thing. With T-Code, you can memorize the combinations into muscle memory, then you can write it fine without even knowing the reading. That's a bad thing.
The AJATT Method - kazelee - 2009-05-07
Pauline Wrote:Your talk of muscle memory made me want to ask that....Quote:On a side note: Have you ever considered the Piano?What do you mean?
quote Wrote:With T-Code, you can memorize the combinations into muscle memory, then you can write it fine without even knowing the reading. That's a bad thing.You could do this with qwerty but it'd probably be less likely. Muscle memory is a double-edged sword.
The AJATT Method - Pauline - 2009-05-07
Tobberoth Wrote:Everytime you write 殺害 for example, you train that 殺 is read さつ, that 害 is read がい. That's good training, that's exposure. That means, every time you write Japanese, you are actively training it, you can't write without knowing the readings so you are forced to remember them. That's a good thing.That's a bad thing. When I compose text, I want as little as possible between my thoughts and what I type. I have used the Japanese IME and it always gets in my way. Besides you can type with an IME without knowing the readings: simply recall other words you know that contains the wanted kanji. I have used that workaround a lot of times to look up new compounds.
Quote:With T-Code, you can memorize the combinations into muscle memory, then you can write it fine without even knowing the reading. That's a bad thing.That's a good thing. I can type a sentence from a book with unknown compounds, but containing known kanji, into my SRS. I can look up the meaning and reading of those compounds in an online dictionary without resorting to guessing readings or recalling other words.
The AJATT Method - Gingerninja - 2009-05-07
this is why i use njstar.. built in dictionary/ information on all readings of the characters. and even a radical finder should you have no idea what the kanji is. you can look it up according to the parts of the character (which anyone who's completed rtk should be able to do without a second thought)
The AJATT Method - vosmiura - 2009-05-07
Sure it's a good thing when you recognize the kanji but don't know the reading, but it doesn't help you when you know the reading but don't quite remember the kanji, which is something pretty common even for Japanese.
Anyhow, it is pretty interesting if you can do it so I'm not going to try to put you off, but to me it sounds like a mountain of a task - with a lot of slowdown while still in the learning process. Perhaps if I was already at such a high Japanese level that my bottleneck was typing, then it would be something to consider.
The AJATT Method - saizen - 2009-05-18
Shun the Nonbelievers
Hey guys if you follow the AJATT Method read some of the replies to 勝元's or in this thread, 勝海殿's advice. I found this link a couple days back on the AJATT site on his tweeter thing-a-ma-doo on the side of the web page. VERY interesting read to see people see heisig as completely useless...
http://ithinkimlost.com/showthread.php?t=10977&highlight=rosetta&page=2
comments?
The AJATT Method - Nukemarine - 2009-05-18
Let's see: Impossible to learn 2000 kanji (even if only recognition and writing) in three months. Even so you can't read. Even so, you are .1% with photographic memory. Impossible to be reading Harry Potter after 8 months. Even so, if you had skipped RTK you could have read Harry Potter normally after the same time (even though stated earlier it was impossible). Conventional methods backed by research over methods that show results..
Yeah, I'm not seeing a very good discussion occurring there.
On the AJATT front: Oddly enough, my wife is mailing Harry Potter 1-3 to me, so I'll be reading those in time. I did have to specify I meant the books.
In addition, I'm going to do actual sentence mining via subs2srs. Now my focus will be on "rounding" out my Japanese. Guess what that means is adding sentences that don't scream out at me what they mean. This goes beyond black and white of basic vocabulary and grammar, into that gray realm where things are said a certain way because that's how it's done. Part of this is in response to AJATT's recent article, and another was with the difficulty Core 6k started out with, and in part that even sentences where I knew the words and basic meaning still fell beyond me.
The AJATT Method - kerosan41 - 2009-05-18
saizen Wrote:Shun the NonbelieversShun! Shuuuun nuh.
...
comments?
The AJATT Method - mentat_kgs - 2009-05-18
"Impossible to read a novel after 8 months of study"
Ahuahuhuahua. Ahuahuhauhahuah. Auhahuahuuhhauhahuahuha.
Poor old guy.
That thread you pointed is hilarious.
The AJATT Method - blackmacros - 2009-05-18
mentat_kgs Wrote:"Impossible to read a novel after 8 months of study"It made me depressed in humanity :-(
Ahuahuhuahua. Ahuahuhauhahuah. Auhahuahuuhhauhahuahuha.
Poor old guy.
That thread you pointed is hilarious.
The AJATT Method - Squintox - 2009-05-18
blackmacros Wrote:It made me depressed in humanity :-(Agreed. They're so close minded, they even attacked open mindedness.
It doesn't matter though - they will lose out. They will complain about how hard kanji is, they will complain about how hard their textbook exercises are, they will complain and bash the Japanese language in general.
While they're recommending each other Genki and Pimsleur while we're recommending 電車男 and Death Note 漫画. I'm proud to be on this side of the fence
The Koohii community is awesome ^^
The AJATT Method - crayonmaster - 2009-05-18
Squintox Wrote:I'm proud to be on this side of the fenceTrue that. Before I found the AJATT method/RTK, learning the kanji was so frustrating. I can't imagine being back on THAT side of the fence and not being able to read anything except things written for toddlers.
I remember first finding out about RTK, I was skeptical about it. I mean, after all the hard work I put in, RTK seemed like cheating. Ha, so glad I tried it. I think I would have given up on Japanese without it.
The AJATT Method - harhol - 2009-05-18
I've seen this awful forum before. I remember it because of the guy with the man-in-makeup avatar. But yeah... mixed feelings. Do you laugh at them or pity them?
- "I haven't met a single person with good Japanese that has ascribed their success to Heisig."
I see this quite often, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Maybe all these guys are shut-ins?
- "If you did [RTK1] in 90 days congrats you are a superman and possibly have photographic memory."
- "How can you learn AND remember 50 kanji a day?"
This sums it up really. A lack of willingness to understand the purpose & methods of the book.
- "I'll give an example, front page story on the asahi newspaper....After you finish the first Heisig book you will have no idea what this story is about."
I stopped reading at this point because it was just too depressing.
The AJATT Method - hknamida - 2009-05-18
harhol Wrote:I've seen this awful forum before. I remember it because of the guy with the man-in-makeup avatar. But yeah... mixed feelings. Do you laugh at them or pity them?Maybe because Heisig's method itself doesn't teach you the actual language? It's yet another example of someone who has completely misunderstood the point of the book.
- "I haven't met a single person with good Japanese that has ascribed their success to Heisig."
I see this quite often, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Maybe all these guys are shut-ins?
The AJATT Method - mentat_kgs - 2009-05-18
I just got into that flamewar. Wish me luck.
The AJATT Method - mafried - 2009-05-18
Ugh, it's frustrating to read. I certainly understand where they are coming from, and out of compassion I wish that they could give it a try and experience its benefits... but 9 times out of 10 such people are not to be reasoned with. C'est la vie.
For a more uplifting read, try this thread. In this case at least there were some initially close-minded people that did an about-face after the OP reported his results.
The AJATT Method - harhol - 2009-05-18
hknamida Wrote:Maybe because Heisig's method itself doesn't teach you the actual language?Yeah, that as well.
It's amazing how many people refuse to even attempt to understand what is ultimately a very simple book with very clear goals.
The AJATT Method - Thora - 2009-05-18
This is a great community - it'd be a shame if we were to come off as close minded, as critical of other approaches and people, and as lecturing guests.
Heisig is a tool that represents a very small part of learning the language. There are perfectly valid arguments against Heisig: using English keywords and English stories, the choice of keywords, the order of kanji, the merits of doing all 2000 up front, the transition to readings, kanji before kana, etc. None of my friends who read Japanese as part of their jobs used Heisig to learn - it isn't essential.
Non-Heisig folks usually have a different definition of what it is to "read" and to "know kanji" which affects their time estimates. There is nothing wrong with starting with learning from graded texts to improve reading fluency and comprehension. Looking up most words and analyzing sentences develops other reading skills. Many folks are excited to start understanding basic Japanese right away and the idea of spending months in front of a computer screen memorizing pictures strikes them as painfully dull.
More generally, I find that those enthusiastically parroting and defending various language theories as truth tend to be relative beginners. Perhaps the perspective of a bit more experience mellows opinion? This stuff ain't black and white, and most is just theory.
So do your own thing, provide helpful info when asked, and rise above the temptation ridicule others. Then folks outside the RTK community might think we're as great as we think ourselves to be.
- end gentle lecture -
The AJATT Method - harhol - 2009-05-18
Thora Wrote:There are perfectly valid arguments against Heisig: using English keywords and English stories, the choice of keywords, the order of kanji, the merits of doing all 2000 up front, the transition to readings, kanji before kana, etc.Something can only be considered flawed if it fails to do what it's intended to do. In that sense RTK does have weaknesses: some terrible primitive names (lidded crock?!), some terrible stories, a few bad keywords, annoying chapter lengths, occasional inconsistencies...
The problem is that 99% of people criticise it for what it doesn't intend to do. The fact that it uses English stories and keywords is not a weakness, it's a feature of the book. Ditto the absence of readings; ditto the emphasis on learning all ~2000 at once; ditto the emphasis on kanji over kana; all of them features, not flaws. The back cover doesn't say, "Sup guise, wanna become fluent in two months?" The title itself is How Not to Forget the Meaning and Writing of Japanese Characters! The title!
Some people also see it as a replacement rather than a primer, which is wrong. It's supposed to be a quick 2-3 month jaunt to give you a headstart when you come to learn Japanese. It never professes to be a book that will teach you any Japanese. Yet still these basic misconceptions continue to exist. It's bizarre.
The AJATT Method - mafried - 2009-05-18
Thanks for the well written post, Thora.
My friend described this in a different context. He said that when we learn something that revolutionizes what we do we go through what he called a "rabbi phase" where we preach our method to everyone that we meet. Perhaps "evangelical phase" would be a better term. It's out of genuine compassion that we push our system onto others. We've been where they are--progressing at a snail's pace, wondering if Japanese literacy can ever be achieved in a lifetime--and we want to save them the suffering of continuing to use bad methods.
But the truth is that fighting them does more harm than good. Better to build an open, welcoming community here and let them join us on their own terms.
The AJATT Method - Jarvik7 - 2009-05-18
Arguably it just teaches you to recognize and write, not the meaning.
The AJATT Method - nac_est - 2009-05-18
mafried Wrote:Thanks for the well written post, Thora.Interesting post.
My friend described this in a different context. He said that when we learn something that revolutionizes what we do we go through what he called a "rabbi phase" where we preach our method to everyone that we meet. Perhaps "evangelical phase" would be a better term. It's out of genuine compassion that we push our system onto others. We've been where they are--progressing at a snail's pace, wondering if Japanese literacy can ever be achieved in a lifetime--and we want to save them the suffering of continuing to use bad methods.
But the truth is that fighting them does more harm than good. Better to build an open, welcoming community here and let them join us on their own terms.