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+--- Thread: The AJATT Method (/thread-682.html)
The AJATT Method - iSoron - 2008-12-08
Tobberoth Wrote:Safe to say, using translations which weren't meant to teach is a very bad idea.Even idiomatic translations can be useful. If you read the translated text first, you can skip as many difficult sentences as you want without getting lost.
The AJATT Method - Balaam - 2008-12-08
Raichu Wrote:I'm having trouble with how long it takes me to use an SRS.Just enter the setences straight into your SRS. On most SRS's there'll be an export function. Here's what I usually do.
The AJATT Method - Jeffu - 2008-12-12
I am new to the AJATT so I have some questions for those of you who have been using the system for a while. According to Katz, he says that we are to first learn Kanji using the RTK book and while learning Kanji we are to do NOTHING else. Also, once we finish the book we are then to study sentences, listen to Japanese audios, read Japanese books, watch Japanese videos, etc...and to not worry about vocab meanings since this will automatically come to us through contex.
So I am curious if any of you have followed this system or if have made any tweeks to it?
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2008-12-12
Jeffu Wrote:I am new to the AJATT so I have some questions for those of you who have been using the system for a while. According to Katz, he says that we are to first learn Kanji using the RTK book and while learning Kanji we are to do NOTHING else. Also, once we finish the book we are then to study sentences, listen to Japanese audios, read Japanese books, watch Japanese videos, etc...and to not worry about vocab meanings since this will automatically come to us through contex.Everybody finds there own way. The only thing we agree on is to finish RTK first. If you really want to do Japanese stuff before finishing, don't think "I can't do this stuff until after I finish RTK".
So I am curious if any of you have followed this system or if have made any tweeks to it?
Just do it and find out what you like and don't like.
The AJATT Method - Tobberoth - 2008-12-12
alyks Wrote:Everybody finds there own way. The only thing we agree on is to finish RTK first. If you really want to do Japanese stuff before finishing, don't think "I can't do this stuff until after I finish RTK".Wow, when I saw Alyks had replied, I though "Man, this is going to turn into an argument again". But this post I agree with 100%. Don't listen to everything Khaz says. Don't listen to everything Alyks says. Don't listen to everything I say.
Just do it and find out what you like and don't like.
Listen to all of us, try it all out and see what you like. Do you feel like studying nothing but kanji is boring? Then try some grammar on the side. Find you might be confused about seeing kanji you haven't learned yet? Stick to RtK. Feel that learning vocab though context is impossible? Use a dictionary? J-E dictionary? J-J dictionary?
There's tons of choices and there's tons of advice to read. Focus on the things most of the advice agrees on:
* Doing RtK early gives a big advantage to later studies.
* The sentence method is an effective way to learn new vocabulary.
Everyone has their own tweeks. Alyks here learned on'yomi readings after RtK with a technique he invented himself. I used more traditional schooling in Japan to get to a high level before even finding AJATT. We all come from different backgrounds, you have to take whats good of everyones methods and apply to your own background and your own goals.
The AJATT Method - Jeffu - 2008-12-12
Thanks for the feedback...
The AJATT Method - mattyjaddy - 2008-12-12
Jeffu,
As the name of the method indicates, you should be attempting to live in Japanese, even during this time of learning kanji. Of course, you might focus more on listening input, since most reading is out of the question. But there's not so much a reason to wait on turning your life Japanese. More listening will only make things better. If you have access to children's books, they are a good source of Japanese input through hiragana/katakana. (I think Khatz has those as the step after kanji, but it might feel rewarding to learn those and be able to read a least something up front. And kid's books have pretty high level grammar, at least according to how grammar is presented in textbooks.) You can be glancing through Japanese textbooks to be familiarizing yourself with grammar, etc. Of course, that time could be spent on more kanji, but for me there was a limit to how much I wanted or could do in one day successfully.
And as was mentioned, listen to all and none of this and do what works for you.
The AJATT Method - revenantkioku - 2008-12-16
nac_est Wrote:Raichu,It's often much faster to pull a sentence for a word out of a dictionary or other text source than trying to get the entire audio source down correctly. And when I'm playing games, I don't want to be copying sentences, ever. I do jot down words I see that annoy me that I don't know and get sentences later.
your method seems a little too complicated. And why do you need to look for example sentences for words you found in context to begin with?
While this does not guarantee the same context, it does guarantee learning new words.
The AJATT Method - igordesu - 2008-12-17
I'm not sure if this has been discussed already (it probably has, so sorry about that...), but I have a random question.
How have you guys integrated (if you even have at all) the text-to-speech software idea that Khatz came up with for sentences? I'm still in the Kanji phase, but I've been thinking about what I'll do when I start sentences. I'd like to do the TTS thing, but it seems time consuming, and I'm not sure if it's really had any success with other people who have tried it. Also, it's kind of expensive (if you want a good voice, so...). Also, I've been worried about using TTS since I wonder if I'll learn the readings of Kanji good enough to the point where I can apply it to reading (if that makes sense, lol...)
What do you think? Is it worth it? Or, have any of you used a combination of traditional sentences half the time and TTS the other half? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
The AJATT Method - sutebun - 2008-12-17
If you want to do something like Kanji Odyessy, using a TTS to test your listening is not such a bad idea. Though if you are a complete beginner, I would be wary of it. I used a book (that is almost the same as KO; it's called Kanji in Context) and took the sentences it had and put them in TTS, but I could usually tell when the TTS was giving me something weird. It really strengthens your kanji writing ability though since you will have to think of how to write a kanji just from hearing it and replaying the word inside your head.
My main problem with the TTS wasn't the TTS itself, but that I found the material accompanying it not to be the most interesting. And that I also can't have real Japanese (music, tv, or whatever) playing while I am listening to a TTS in my SRS. Plus, I might not always want sound when I want to do some reviews, so I decided to can it.
Also, if you do not have means to obtain a TTS, do not spend money on it (wink). It is very expensive and you could do a lot more with that money.
If you want though, give it a shot. I really suggest for everyone to try lots of different ways of learning to find what suits you and how you have fun.
The AJATT Method - esgrove - 2008-12-17
I second that. I have thousands of entries in my SRS and they're all reading/recognition. My listening is very poor. If I listen to something in Japanese it's very difficult for me to understand it, but if the same thing is written down it's a piece of cake. I want to try to integrate audio cards, but I don't know how.
The AJATT Method - saizen - 2008-12-18
whatever happened to just plain old listening to podcasts and music? I do SRS production/recognition (from KO) and after only about 500 facts (1000 cards) i have noticed a big jump in the reading and speaking skills. After 7 months of listening to 経済情報/日経トレンディ/J-Pop I have noticed a big jump in the listening comprehension. Nothing wrong with splitting it up..everything dont have to be in the srs does it?
I live in japan and that by itself was not enough to get me good steady results cause everyone wants to speak english to you. I didn't notice the improvement till i started bumping that music and podcast. Saves time from making audio files in my opinion.
The AJATT Method - Nukemarine - 2008-12-18
saizen Wrote:whatever happened to just plain old listening to podcasts and music? I do SRS production/recognition (from KO) and after only about 500 facts (1000 cards) i have noticed a big jump in the reading and speaking skills. After 7 months of listening to 経済情報/日経トレンディ/J-Pop I have noticed a big jump in the listening comprehension. Nothing wrong with splitting it up..everything dont have to be in the srs does it?My understanding is you're not studying Japanese 24/7 (SRS inputs and reviews). If you're doing SRS for 2 hours, that leaves 22 hours you're listening/watching Japanese for fun (however much of that you use to sleep is your thing). If you study for 4 hours, listen/watch it for the other 20 hours. If your only exposure to Japanese is an SRS, you're going to have issues.
I live in japan and that by itself was not enough to get me good steady results cause everyone wants to speak english to you. I didn't notice the improvement till i started bumping that music and podcast. Saves time from making audio files in my opinion.
By the way, I use the dictation as a method to test not only my listening, but my memory of the word.
The AJATT Method - samesong - 2009-01-02
This isn't really worth making a separate thread for, but it's interesting to see the notion of AJATT (or in this case, AE(ngish)ATT become more popular because of what the internet allows us to do.
Try reading this Japanese article if you can. A Japanese lifehacker contributor wrote about browsing websites in English instead of Japanese. He goes on to say that if you make the switch to all English sites, it will eventually become natural to you, and you will gain the ability to quickly scan websites for information (which is a key ability in reading a foreign language).
He also recommends watching DVDs with both English and Japanese subtitles (and of course English audio). I suppose if your English ability is low, it's a good way to start, but eventually you'll want to take away the Japanese subtitles all together.
http://www.lifehacker.jp/2009/01/post_475.html
The AJATT Method - Amset - 2009-01-02
igordesu Wrote:I'm not sure if this has been discussed already (it probably has, so sorry about that...), but I have a random question.What I do is, I always have the text in the question and when the audio is availible I put in in Anki, but I don't put in any of the TTS stuff, but for the ones that don't have audio, when they come up in review I copy them to the clipboard and it reads it out (I do that when I'm looking at the answer)
How have you guys integrated (if you even have at all) the text-to-speech software idea that Khatz came up with for sentences? I'm still in the Kanji phase, but I've been thinking about what I'll do when I start sentences. I'd like to do the TTS thing, but it seems time consuming, and I'm not sure if it's really had any success with other people who have tried it. Also, it's kind of expensive (if you want a good voice, so...). Also, I've been worried about using TTS since I wonder if I'll learn the readings of Kanji good enough to the point where I can apply it to reading (if that makes sense, lol...)
What do you think? Is it worth it? Or, have any of you used a combination of traditional sentences half the time and TTS the other half? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
So I test myself text -> reading (with TTS) and meaning
I find the TTS pretty useful, although it's annoying when it gives the wrong reading for something.
The AJATT Method - nest0r - 2009-01-07
Khatz posted a useful entry: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/automated-discipline-how-to-keep-new-years-resolutions-and-stay-on-track-all-the-time
At least, the LeechBlock Firefox addon is useful for weak-willed people like me who can't refrain from visiting this forum waaay too often.
Goodbye dear forum, see you next month or next week or something. No more brief one-liners, no more increasingly frustrated yet purposefully vague theoretical rants. It's not you, it's me. Au revoir! <3
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2009-01-07
nest0r Wrote:Khatz posted a useful entry: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/automated-discipline-how-to-keep-new-years-resolutions-and-stay-on-track-all-the-time...so when I started browsing the forum using the IE tab to bypass it, I uninstalled it. Then when I started using IE to browse the forum, I broke it. Then I started using proxy websites to browse. When I blocked those, I used Google to find new ones. So then finally I added *proxy* and *proxies* to the damn thing, and I think it works now.
At least, the LeechBlock Firefox addon is useful for weak-willed people like me who can't refrain from visiting this forum waaay too often.
Goodbye dear forum, see you next month or next week or something. No more brief one-liners, no more increasingly frustrated yet purposefully vague theoretical rants. It's not you, it's me. Au revoir! <3
The AJATT Method - kazelee - 2009-01-07
alyks Wrote:LOL. Sounds like an adventure. Try just accepting the fact that when you want to slack you're going to find a way. It's human nature.nest0r Wrote:Khatz posted a useful entry: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/automated-discipline-how-to-keep-new-years-resolutions-and-stay-on-track-all-the-time...so when I started browsing the forum using the IE tab to bypass it, I uninstalled it. Then when I started using IE to browse the forum, I broke it. Then I started using proxy websites to browse. When I blocked those, I used Google to find new ones. So then finally I added *proxy* and *proxies* to the damn thing, and I think it works now.
At least, the LeechBlock Firefox addon is useful for weak-willed people like me who can't refrain from visiting this forum waaay too often.
Goodbye dear forum, see you next month or next week or something. No more brief one-liners, no more increasingly frustrated yet purposefully vague theoretical rants. It's not you, it's me. Au revoir! <3
The AJATT Method - Jarvik7 - 2009-01-07
It seems that you people haven't discovered naps yet. There is no firefox plugin to fix that.
The AJATT Method - resolve - 2009-01-07
samesong Wrote:Try reading this Japanese article if you can. A Japanese lifehacker contributor wrote about browsing websites in English instead of Japanese. He goes on to say that if you make the switch to all English sites, it will eventually become natural to you, and you will gain the ability to quickly scan websites for information (which is a key ability in reading a foreign language).The problem is that the Japanese equivalents of the computer sites I regularly read either suck or do not exist. It's much easier for a Japanese person, where switching to English means an increase in the quality and quantity of material, rather than the opposite.
The AJATT Method - nest0r - 2009-01-08
Yes, I think I'll need to uninstall Internet Explorer. I almost never used it till this week, either. ;p
I've also spent the week discovering how many proxy sites there are that don't have 'proxy' or 'proxies' in the URL. ;/
The AJATT Method - Burby - 2009-01-27
I fell off the Kanji Wagon at 70+ because I was very discouraged by how immersed and cutoff from your native language Khatzu suggested you have to be with the AJATT method.
My family doesn't make great money, so I can't quite afford tons of Japanese Movies/Books/Manga/VGs from which to receive my verbal input from. There's the internet I suppose, but I have no idea how to go about finding cable broadcasts from Japan, strictly Japanese books/novels/mangas, and where to find Japanese dubbed/subbed english movies.
Khatzu made it sounds as though if you so much as watch an English movie, you'll relapse and forget everything... That's what got me most, I think. Music is my joy, and many of my favorite bands are English. I also have a large collection of books which I read extensively for spiritual purposes, and none of which are published in Japanese (AFAIK, and I'm pretty sure of it.)
It's almost as though you have to make yourself a recluse from your normal life in order to study effectively.
But I really do want to learn this language... But at what a cost.
The AJATT Method - nest0r - 2009-01-27
AJATT isn't a religion. (Just take what's useful to you.) As far as I'm concerned, it's just an abbreviation for what I already wanted to do in regards to Japanese media (which isn't always what others advocate), plus 'SRSing sentences'.
I think Khatzumoto should have these on his site:
"If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from 'this' or from 'that,' then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it."
"... Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back."
-Bruce Lee
The AJATT Method - tibul - 2009-01-27
@Burby
I think all Khatzu is trying to show is that if you really want to learn the language at a very fast pace to fluency then you have to be a bit extreme you can't expect to learn a language at a fast pace unless you devote a huge amount of time.
Although this is not to say you won't be able to reach fluency its just that it will take longer obviously somebody who devotes all day every day to Japanese is going to learn much quicker than somebody who puts in only a couple of hours a day but the person who only can do a few hours will still reach fluency in the end how ever long it takes.
In the end its all down to dedication do what you can every day even if its just a little.
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2009-01-27
Burby Wrote:It's almost as though you have to make yourself a recluse from your normal life in order to study effectively.I don't see a problem here. You either do it or you don't. If you don't like the idea of immersion learning, then don't do it.
But I really do want to learn this language... But at what a cost.
The reason Khatzu goes to the extreme with avoiding anything in English is because it adds up. If every time you decided to put on a Japanese movie instead of an English movie, you'd quickly rack up the hours. Hours = skill, simple as that.
To me there is no cost. Or at least it's minimal. I used to watch movies all the time, I love to go down to blockbuster and watch the new releases. But all that stopped when I started Japanese. To me it's worth it to give it up. Learning Japanese and expanding my reality at the cost of discarding my old one is worth it.
I may not get to enjoy and learn from what I've always done before, so I find things in Japanese. I don't get to watch the same movies and read the same books in Japanese as I would in English, and that's a loss. But from that loss my world as expanded. I've cultivated an interest in things Japanese and learn from an entirely different perspective than I'm used to. I read and watch things now that I would have never even thought to in English. I listen and love an entirely different genre of music than I'm used to through Japanese music. It's different, but it's worth it.
(If you need help finding Japanese stuff on the internet, feel free to email me.)