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+--- Thread: The AJATT Method (/thread-682.html)
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2008-10-14
nickoakden Wrote:I think I'm going to set up a seperate Anki deck, just for vocab. That way I can make really quick cards, for really quick review, to really drill those words (verbs especially) into my mind.Anki now has a "cram" feature which essentially does the same thing as this but allows you to keep everything in a single deck.
Perseverance!
The AJATT Method - Pete171 - 2008-10-14
Thanks for the reply, nac_est! It's good to know I'm at least on the right track with the cards.
I have one remaining question if nobody minds. So, I've created my card. How should I then "learn" these sentences to put them up for reviw? What should I do to remember the kanji readings in a sentence? Any help would be great.
The AJATT Method - Tobberoth - 2008-10-14
Pete171 Wrote:Thanks for the reply, nac_est! It's good to know I'm at least on the right track with the cards.You'll eventually get a "feeling" for Japanese and you won't really need any mnemonic or anything. Just learn the word properly when you learn the sentence, then read it out loud everytime it comes up. If you can't remember the reading, fail it and start over. Eventually, it will be stuck, just as if you simply learned words off a vocab list (even easier since you have a context).
I have one remaining question if nobody minds. So, I've created my card. How should I then "learn" these sentences to put them up for reviw? What should I do to remember the kanji readings in a sentence? Any help would be great.
Personally, I feel using mnemonics to learn vocab is a bit too much, words are (compared to kanji) really easy to learn by brute force.
The AJATT Method - Pete171 - 2008-10-14
I'll give some a go soon and see how they go.
みなさん、ありがとうございます!
The AJATT Method - uberstuber - 2008-10-14
nickoakden Wrote:With audio, sometimes I hear the start, and just remember the rest from when I've inputted it, so it kind of feels like I'm cheating - I haven't actually heard the sentence and understood it.This will go away/become much rarer as you accumulate more cards.
The AJATT Method - nac_est - 2008-10-15
uberstuber Wrote:This will go away/become much rarer as you accumulate more cards.Yeah, basically, when you're starting out you just need to go on steadily, without worrying too much about the details. It's better to create 300 imperfect sentences at first and then find out the best format for you, than struggling with the first 50 on the basis of some "theory" and consequently burnout.
Actually I've made various important changes in the way I make cards after I had more than 2000 sentences. It's not a big deal.
The AJATT Method - hknamida - 2008-10-15
I occasionally improve my cards on the fly as they show up during reviews. Common reasons include misspelled words, kanji for words usually written in kana (余り, etc.), unnecessary grammar points or definitions, or sentences that can be shortened without losing anything of value.
The AJATT Method - thermal - 2008-10-17
I am studying really hard now for the JLPT 2, so I don't have the time to go digging through words in the sanseido definitions that I don't understand. I have found a nice middle ground of using rikaichan on the definition if I need it, but only using it on the word if I still can't understand the definition. It's nice in that I don't know the word in English, don't spend a whole lot of time on it yet still understand the words meaning.
My goal is to finish KO book 2 and then cut out rikaichan completely, as by this time I should have enough vocab to avoid tunneling through many definitions trying to get the meaning.
Quote:I've basically just started the sentences, less than a fortnight ago. At the moment I'm struggling quite a lot - my vocabulary needs a lot of work, so I'm failing a lot of cards.I think everyone has problems with this. The best trick for me to help with this is to focus on actually hearing the sentence anew and interpreting its meaning. I also sometimes do things like shadow the audio, pretend I am being spoken to, relay the information in my own words to someone imaginary, use the word I am learning in an other sentence, respond to the sentence as if it was spoken to me, disagree with the sentence, etc. This works to break up my mind from going into autopilot, but actually I find that just concentrating is enough usually.
With audio, sometimes I hear the start, and just remember the rest from when I've inputted it, so it kind of feels like I'm cheating - I haven't actually heard the sentence and understood it.
Pete171,
Generally the wisdom of the people here is to go from production to recognition. So read the hiragana and then produce the kanji. However I personally believe that doing it both ways is the best, but go from production first (which you can set Anki to do).
I think the most important thing is that you keep an eye on how the techniques are working for you and adjust according. Everyone learns differently, so you can't rely on any advice to be right for you IMO.
The AJATT Method - kaeru - 2008-10-19
Wow I'm so impressed by many of the posters here, you seem to have advanced far in your studies.
Me, I adopted the AJATT-method about 2 weeks ago, started with Hesigmethod about 8 days ago or so, have learnt about 150 kanjis or so(well learnt and learnt, but theyre in my ANKI and im practiciing every day).
My prior experience is 2 trips to Japan 1 month each(in the summers), I knew Hiragana before and learnt katakana a couple of weeks ago. I am in many ways a total newbie.
Everyone here seems so advanced in their studies.
The thing is I'm at loss what else to do?
I try to surround myself with Japanese by listening to a lot of music, Japanesepod101(yeah I know what he says about these kind of podcasts but listening to only Japanese like audiobooks etc seems way tooo advanced for me right now, I have basically no vocabulary).
I feel like doing sentences is way to early, I should finish RTK1 first right?
I just feel like I need some sort of structure that makes sense to me, sure I know that I am supposed to "BE" Japanese but watching movies without subtitles or listening to audiobooks feels a little premature since I cant understand or cant use my srs to put in sentences etc.
Can someone structure it up for me, or at least explain how wrong I am etc?
The AJATT Method - CaLeDee - 2008-10-19
Kaeru I think it might be a little early for you to dive into sentence gathering. It's important for any beginner to get a good foundation to build on. I would suggest you try using a textbook to get a handle on the basics first of all. I only used the Genki text books when I started out, so I can't speak for others that might be available. However I really do think Genki is perfect for any beginners. You should check it out.
Also: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ is recommended by many Japanese learners.
As for whether or not you should finish RTK first, I think it's personal preference. When I was doing RTK I put textbook work aside and tried to finish it quickly. You might prefer doing both at the same time.
AJATT is fine and all but if you are just beginning, you will obviously need to be reading grammar explanations and translations in a language you understand. Good luck!
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2008-10-19
kaeru Wrote:The thing is I'm at loss what else to do?Yeah, you should be finished with RTK.
I try to surround myself with Japanese by listening to a lot of music, Japanesepod101(yeah I know what he says about these kind of podcasts but listening to only Japanese like audiobooks etc seems way tooo advanced for me right now, I have basically no vocabulary).
I feel like doing sentences is way to early, I should finish RTK1 first right?
I just feel like I need some sort of structure that makes sense to me, sure I know that I am supposed to "BE" Japanese but watching movies without subtitles or listening to audiobooks feels a little premature since I cant understand or cant use my srs to put in sentences etc.
Don't think you need to be at a certain level to be able to do what you're doing. Instead go in with the mindset that you're going to get good by working at it even if you do suck at first.
The AJATT Method - Nukemarine - 2008-10-19
Kaeru,
Yes, a lot of the work has already been done for you and will be there waiting for when you are ready.
The stories are already on this site. Sentences have been mined from several books and also Tae Kim's guide to Japanese. Different methods are developed to learn on yomi (Alyks' Movie Method is pretty cool imo). So don't sweat the sentences too much (actually not at all right now).
For immersion, yeah, gather music and dramas. Play them all the time. Get your ear tuned to Japanese. You're not meant to understand it any more than a baby understands what's going on around it. Plus, I see no harm getting basics from Jpod or Pimsleur. Just realize it's a crutch that you'll cast aside as soon as you can hobble.
The AJATT Method - mentat_kgs - 2008-10-19
Your number one priority should be remembering the kanji. Put 100% of your strenght in it, to finish it as fast as possible. Know that it is doable under a month. Tought not for the faint hearted. If you have the time and the will to do it, you should aim for that.
Enjoy the stories here in this site. They will help you a lot. Read the advice of people here in the forum.
The preface of genki is a very good reading. It introduces you to most of the problem's you'll have while learning japanese. But forget the rest of the book.
Tae kim's guide is nice to check too. But don't sweat it too much.
The AJATT Method - kaeru - 2008-10-21
you guys are great, thanks for settling a worried mind to rest(rest I shall not, study I shall!!).
I felt I kinda was going in 10 directions at once, but I see now that I need to finish RTK1 with all my might, while doing the other stuff for fun for now(like watching dramas, listening to music, trying to read my shonen jumps etc).
When I have finished RTK1 I will read through this whole thread to get some ideas on what to do next and of course ask stupid questions at the same time
thx
The AJATT Method - mentat_kgs - 2008-10-21
Sounds like a great plan.
And remember, there are no stupid questions, only the stupid one who asks them.
The AJATT Method - TerryS - 2008-11-01
wrightak Wrote:Kids will just learn with the 'natural' part of their brain but when you're an adult you tend to look at things analytically, to memorise, to form patterns and to approach the language learning like you would any other challenge.Actually, this is what many experts say, and the reason that adults learn so inefficiently is because they do not use the "natural" way. (Forgetting the issue of kanji for a moment.) A few companies out there have really focused on this and their students are very successful.
There is a local company near me that does language-training for companies by teaching people the "natural" way (immersion, pictures, etc.) -- no translation. Then you have "Rosetta Stone", which is the superior multimedia software to practice vocab, listening, speaking, reading, and writing about what you see and hear in the "natural" way. I got a 15-language sample several years ago, never used it, and broke it out when I started learning Japanese. Actually, there are enough lessons for each language to last anyone for a while! Unfortunately I got away from it until recently -- for over a year -- but upon using it again I realized I forgot almost nothing.
I suppose this is a little OT as it doesn't relate to AJATT, but my goals now (that I have found the right methods) are:
1) Do 10 kanji a day and 25 kanji one day a week.
2) Spend an hour every other day using "Rosetta Stone". (This needs improvement.)
3) Every other day, use "A Kodansha Dictionary: A Guide to Japanese Verbs" for writing practice.
4) Start listening to Japanese CDs at night. Even though you can't "learn" this way, I believe you will unconciously become familiar with the accents and patterns, which is important for me because that's what I have a hard time with. (I worked with immigrants to the U.S. for years, and I'd still have to have them repeat what they said because I didn't understand it, though they were speaking English?)
5) Save up my money for an iPod touch. I was gonna go for an e-Dictionary, until I heard about JapanesePod101.com and friends who use it love it. Unfortunately, being in school and working only part-time, this will take a while. I guess I should get the word out to (close) family that MONEY would be great for Christmas, and hope they aren't offended.
I have a kanji workbook, too, but while using RTK I only use that book for review and become familiar with vocabulary. I don't do much, because each quiz is on a group of kanji, but as soon as I notice I've learned all the kanji in any group of the book, then I do that group. So I will be bouncing around that book, but it builds my vocab and introduces me to new constructions.
The AJATT Method - mentat_kgs - 2008-11-01
About Roseta Stone I guess there are some members here that used it and disliked it. I was one of them. It is too superficial. It mainly only teaches you vocabulary.
The AJATT Method - kazelee - 2008-11-01
You can quote me on this... If Rosetta Stone were more in dept, longer and less babyish, I would fork out however much they decided to charge for it. It's a bonafied lazy man's way to learning foreign language.
The AJATT Method - Tobberoth - 2008-11-01
The most common critic against Rosetta Stone is that it only works with indo-european languages, it's useless when it comes to Asian ones.
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2008-11-01
It actually doesn't seem like anybody has gotten far enough it in to tell if it's worth it or not. I found it way too boring.
It does seem like rosetta stone just hacked in Japanese in the same format as Euro languages.
I myself am not going to say it's not effective. I'm quite sure that it's a valid method to learn. But the main reasons not to use it are that it's boring, it's focus is on the spoken langauge, and the average guy here is probably going to move faster than the program would have you. Since it's emphasis is on spoken language, that means upon completing the program you won't setup to continue improving your Japanese unless you're already surrounded by native speakers. Many second language learners won't have that option.
The AJATT Method - Nukemarine - 2008-11-01
Rosetta Stone one of those items where if you don't know the language, it looks like a gift from the gods (like Pimsleur). When you're really learning the language, you realize that RS is lacking in many, many areas (like Pimsleur). I gave RSv2 an honest try early in my studies. I also looked at RS3 this year.
Note: This applies to RS3 also, though the design was improved a bit.
The audio is SLOW. Even later in the series it stays at a slow pace. The progress is SLOW. It's not the +1 concept, you're seeing stuff you learned before repeated again and again. The long term learning is non-existent. There's no spaced repetition here.
The concept is great: Sentence, photo, audio. But by trying to teach grammar intuitively, you have to have this slow pace.
Really, when you get grammar from Tae Kim's site, combined with vocabulary from iKnow (or KO2001 or Kanji in Context or etc) you have to hard pressed to tell someone to pick a more expensive, less useful tool.
The AJATT Method - Squintox - 2008-11-01
Rosetta Stone is good for beginners (who prelearnt their hiragana), but definitely not worth $500. If I had to put a value on the amount it teaches you, it would be $40 worth.
The way it teaches you is absolute genius though, but the execution is hit and miss.
The AJATT Method - Dies_Irie - 2008-11-07
To you guys who use the AJATT method, how long did it take you of listening to Japanese media before you realized that you could actually understand a decent amount of it? 95% of what I get is from context, 4% from English words that are used in Japanese, and 1% from Japanese words I already know.
So, how many hours did it take you to notice that you were learning new words just from watching and listening to Japanese media?
I have felt that I can differentiate the syllables more and listen more clearly, but it's mostly still just nonsense to me.
Thanks.
The AJATT Method - alyks - 2008-11-07
Dies_Irie Wrote:To you guys who use the AJATT method, how long did it take you of listening to Japanese media before you realized that you could actually understand a decent amount of it? 95% of what I get is from context, 4% from English words that are used in Japanese, and 1% from Japanese words I already know.I myself am not there yet. I can differenciate between words and pick up most of the words I already know, but not understand a decent amount. But I believe this is a very gradual process. If you want to learn how to pick up words from context, then watch a lot of Japanese (I mean, a lot) and try to associate words with the context and situations.
So, how many hours did it take you to notice that you were learning new words just from watching and listening to Japanese media?
I have felt that I can differentiate the syllables more and listen more clearly, but it's mostly still just nonsense to me.
Thanks.
The AJATT Method - phauna - 2008-11-07
Learning vocabulary first and then listening for it is much easier, especially with KO. Learning vocabulary just from listening, especially if you're a beginner is a tough ask, and pretty unnecessary. Cram more vocabulary and your listening will become more useful.