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Why? - yorkii - 2007-07-16
We are all here as students of Japanese. but, why are we studying?
if we pass JLPT 1, become able to read and write 3000 kanji, do speeches in Japanese without looking like a fool, or read a novel written in Japanese, what does it get us?
Are we studying to get a job that uses this language? and if so, what kind of job?
Or are we studying for the sheer "look at me!" kudos of being able to use Japanese?
On a personal level, I started studying Japanese because I came to work in Japan. I got interested in progressing my skills in the language, but i think i have lost my direction recently. I know enough to get along with staff members, laugh along at jokes as I watch tv, read the odd book (be it a book aimed at school kids), have deep conversations with a girlfriend that does not speak English, and I am still studying. but why?
So really, I am writing this thread to understand what I want to do with this language that I am acquiring. I don't have the goal of working in the translation industry or at the UN conferences etc (yet anyway)...
so I am asking why everyone else is studying and what they plan to do with the language once the achieve the level of proficiency they are happy with. Will that "i think i know enough now" contented level ever be reached?
You could say I am having a bit of (and considerably early) mid-life crisis. or maybe it's not quite as severe as that, just self-evaluation and questioning my life goals etc. there maybe people in this group who try to avoid such questions to yourself like this, as I try to do too much. 自分に「何とかなるから、考えすぎないようにしようね」と言う人とか...
hmmm....
im in a funny mood today.
if you could though, I would like to hear about some of your stories. to try and settle me.
Why? - johnzep - 2007-07-17
I'm studying because my japanese sucks ^___^
once I get past the suck barrier I can start to ponder more long term goals.
Why? - Istvan - 2007-07-17
You could extend that question to just about anything we do. Why do we do it? What's the point? For me, life is about the trip, not the destination. The destination is dead...so if we don't enjoy the trip...
Anyhow, as to why I am studying Japanese, there are many levels. First of all, I live in Japan, am married to a Japanese lady, and have Japanese friends. For this simple reason alone learning Japanese has great benefits, as the more I understand, the more fully I can be immersed in the experience. I remember the point in my life where Japanese in the background ceased being "noise" and became information. Not complete information, but information nevertheless. The more I learn and the more nuances I can understand, the fuller my life in Japan becomes. I am now studying Kanji, so that the squiggly things I see everyday will stop being squiggly things, and also become information. This opens a new apsect of life for me, and again increases the fullness of my life.
Secondly, and not separate from above but in parallel with it, I am tired of being functionally illiterate. It will hold me back if I decide to change jobs, and it closes a world of literature to me. I want to learn to read, so that I enjoy Japanese literature in its native form. So that I can watch foreign (for example Chinese) movies on TV and read the Japanese subtitles and know what is going on. This is a world steeped in culture, and I want to experience some of that through my own interpretations, not the interpretations of others. Even with our native tongues, we all understand it in our wn ways. I want to see the raw words and feelings of Japanese writers, unfiltered, before I apply my own filters to them.
Thirdly, I love reading, and by becoming able to read I will learn Japanese at a faster pace. Though my spoken Japanese is alright, by learning to read, I will continually reinforce known vocabulary while adding new vocabulary. Again this increases the fullness of my experience.
Lastly, I love to learn, and am always learning new things. I never want to stop learning, so why not focus my learning on something that gives me immediate benefit... i.e. the Japanese Language. It is not the only thing I am studying by a long shot (also doing an MBA
) but the impact of what I learn can often be seen immediately and put to use immediately. This is enjoyable to me.So to sum up. I learn Japanese because it enhances my life and I like to learn. What does it get me in the end? Well ultimately nothing much because I am sure I won't take my Japanese ability with me when my number comes up! But along the way, it enhances my life, satisfies a thrist for knowledge, improves my employability (which can seriosuly impact quailty of life!), gives me closer reations with my friends and family in Japan, and some studies show that being bilingual delays the onset of dementia by an average of 4 years... so hey there is another potential upside!
Anyhow, you are far from home (as am I) and these thoughts and feelings tend to pop up from time to time to us strangers in a strange land. It sounds to me that you aren't just questioning studying Japanese, but the whole package. To that I can only say just go on with what feels right to you, don't look back and don't regret!
Cheers!
Why? - suishoo - 2007-07-17
It's always been my dream to live in Japan, even only for a little while.
Once I get my Bachelor degree, I'm thinking of studying there or straightaway find a job in engineering field there (meh, this dream sounds so big).
And I love anime and manga. It'd be nice to read/watch in raws, and be able to get the jokes and the difficult words...
Since I still suck, too, now, I'm still studying.
I guess, one day when I feel like Japanese is my native language, I'll stop.
And I don't think it'll come soon... Hehe.
Why? - synewave - 2007-07-17
Good question yorkii.
Some on the board are no doubt happy to spend the rest of their lives in Japan. Not for me though so I've been having similar doubts re: "wasting" my time studying Japanese. Would it not be better use of my time to pick up a PS3 and learn some new Tekken moves? It's not like I'll be talking Japanese to my friends back home...
My motivation at present is coming from actually enjoying reading manga (sigh); from hearing other people's stories on the forum; working towards the JLPT again; and having starting, I want to finish (i.e. be "fluent").
I am turned off Japanese by Japanese comedy. It would be fair to say that my language ability is perhaps not up to it but at the same time, I'm not aware of anything of the quality of Chris Morris, Alan Partridge or Ali G. That said, I could laugh at HG and Koriki.
One of the reasons I'm not going for JLPT1 this year (aside from not being good enough to pass!) is that if I somehow fluked it, that would suggest that my Japanese is of a high level. That's why I'm going to try and nail JLPT2 this year and try the bad boy in 18 months.
Actually, when a group of us were out where I live, the only JLPT1 boy amongst us tried to order the bill by asking for the おあいそ - the waitress brought him a bowl of ライス。His Japanese is much better than this anecdote would suggest but I reckon it makes my point fairly well.
Why? - yorkii - 2007-07-17
Istvan Wrote:You could extend that question to just about anything we do. Why do we do it? What's the point?Yea, I can agree with that, it just seems so fruitless to me at the moment...
Istvan Wrote:Lastly, I love to learn, and am always learning new things. I never want to stop learning, so why not focus my learning on something that gives me immediate benefit... i.e. the Japanese Language.I also love to learn and tend to get fully absorbed in something that I like, trying to take it to the best level that I can. Unfortunately, I think too much about what I don't know rather than what I do. The "glass half full" pessimistic view maybe. thinking, "I'll never be that good," or, "I'll never understand that, I might as well give up."
Istvan Wrote:But along the way, it enhances my life, satisfies a thrist for knowledge, improves my employability (which can seriosuly impact quailty of life!), gives me closer reations with my friends and family in Japan.How does it improve your employability though? that's something that I am having the most troubles with I think. In your case, you meantioned that you are not only studying Japanese but an MBA too. In this case I can see that having three skills (English, Japanese and whatever your MBA is) is hugely beneficial. But from my standpoint right now (and from what I have been told by other people) having just Japanese and English really won't get you too far...
Istvan Wrote:It sounds to me that you aren't just questioning studying Japanese, but the whole package. To that I can only say just go on with what feels right to you, don't look back and don't regret!Your right. I have no direction and as such make "having no direction" a major problem of mine. I have friends who are into totally different things, but they are really into them. be it music or education or travelling or spirituality. I feel that I am a very easily influenced, because I want direction like them. So, I think, "He has a good idea, I'll do what he is doing." only to come to realise that what they are doing isn't really for me. Does anyone know what I mean by this... kinda like following in someone's footsteps and then when they are not around any more, finding that what you were following isn't really what you wanted.
jesus, I am in an angsty mood today.
forgive my negativity. just have things on my chest and this is the community I trust the most.
Why? - yorkii - 2007-07-17
synewave Wrote:Good question yorkii.Exactly what I have started to think recently. I think you have been here as long as me (coming up for 2 years in August) and your from Scotland, right? If you are not going to be here forever, can I ask what you plan to do, where you gonna go etc.? Or have you not thought that much into it yet?
Some on the board are no doubt happy to spend the rest of their lives in Japan. Not for me though so I've been having similar doubts re: "wasting" my time studying Japanese.
synewave Wrote:[...]from hearing other people's stories on the forum; working towards the JLPT again; and having starting, I want to finish (i.e. be "fluent").Yea, this community is clearly one of the best things about my studies. it's a tight group and the forum is never dull. there are never any stupid translation requests or other stuff like "Help me learn Japanese" thread that riddle other Japanese language related forums.
synewave Wrote:I am turned off Japanese by Japanese comedy. It would be fair to say that my language ability is perhaps not up to it but at the same time, I'm not aware of anything of the quality of Chris Morris, Alan Partridge or Ali G. That said, I could laugh at HG and Koriki.Good man. Big fan of Brasseye. I showed an American friend of mine, and granted, he did not know who Aneka Rice or Bernard Manning were, he thought it was hilarious. I know what you mean about that. I do like some Japanese comedy, but it is very basic, stand-up style at best.
synewave Wrote:[...]the only JLPT1 boy amongst us tried to order the bill by asking for the おあいそ - the waitress brought him a bowl of ライス。His Japanese is much better than this anecdote would suggest but I reckon it makes my point fairly well.after watching that skit by The Rahmens (ザ・ラーメンズ) about "the japanese tradition" and the sushi bar, I have to admit that I used おあいそ a few times actually. (I think that' s where I larnt it from anyway...)
Why? - suffah - 2007-07-17
Hmm, this is a very good question, and whenever I think about this, it's usually because I need a little extra motivation.
Unlike most people here, I am doing this purely as a hobby. I took a couple of beginner's courses in college and didn't really learn much. Browsing around the web I realized that proficiency and fluency were both possible. I have a lot of spare time during the day and decided that a foreign language would be fun. It came down to Japanese or Spanish. Although Spanish would have been more practical (living in Los Angeles and all), I decided to go with Japanese, in case I ever decide to learn Chinese (and make my parents proud).
There are pros and cons with this approach. I don't feel pressure to cram for JLPTs, worry about Japanese job interviews, etc. However, at the same time, without a structured system (such as Heisig) to keep me going, I feel like sometimes I am going too slowly. I might have to force myself to take some exams just so I can stay motivated and consistent. It's a fine line though, I certainly don't want to push it to the point where it's no longer fun.
Why? - synewave - 2007-07-17
Yorkii, this was written before seeing your latest post.
yorkii Wrote:having just Japanese and English really won't get you too far...If you were planning on using your Japanese skills to get you a job is there much other than being a translatoror?
I agree with your statement above if you are expecting your skills to get you a job. But assuming Japan is like the UK, getting a job has a lot to do with blagging too. So if your Japanese is up there, maybe you could talk yourself into a job you want?
One (drastic) way to look at things could be, you've got two options:
- go home (UK) and forget Japanese.
- stay here and make the language submit to your will.
(I discounted staying here and not studying as that strikes me as a waste of time. Speaking from personal experience, it is! (just seen your latest post) I've "wasted" double the time you have!! 4 and a bit years in Japan but for the first 3 years I was a bit of a part time learner)
Talking of being here forever, I got married last year. And no I won't be here forever. But one thing neither my wife nor I thought about fully before getting married was that while it's fine for me to live here while I'm young-ish and the same for her in the UK, neither of us really wants to die in a foreign land (sorry to continue the morbidity!). So while Japanese women are great in many respects, I should have added "willing to die in the UK?" to my check list.
Back home, while I thought I *might* be able to teach Japanese I've realized that university lecturers seem to have a ton of academic background re: Japanese culture / history / etc...
So rather than that I'll most likely become a primary school teacher. Was always shit at football but reckon I might make an okay coach for the school footy team. Well, I can drive a mini-bus at least!
Bernard Manning dead?! It's a ***** disgrace!
Why? - Mighty_Matt - 2007-07-17
For me it's a combination of things.
If I'm brutally honest there is a part which is wanting to do something different to people back home/show off.
There is more than that though. I've always had an interest in Japan and when I finished uni and didn't know what type of job to go for, the idea of teaching abroad came up and it snowballed from there. I'm in my second year here and having just finished the kanji am going to see how my language skills improve by Christmas, when I have to start thinking about re-contracting or not. If I'm getting somewhere I'll stay, if I'm going really slowly, I'll go home and try and keep up the Japanese there.
I don't have a plan for my life so far. If I get a job which uses my Japanese then that's great, but equally if not, that's great too.
Perhaps, deep down. I just want to prove to myself that I can learn the language. I've always been one for starting things and then moving onto something else too quickly. I want to see this though.
That's my why...
Why? - Megaqwerty - 2007-07-17
Truth be told: hentai and video games.
Yeah, everyone's a freakin' philosopher compared to me. I don't have any plans on going to Japan, evar (I've never actually left the Americas yet), so I effectively ignore these odd speaking and listening parts that everyone keeps talking about.
Why? - aircawn - 2007-07-17
Myself? Boredom. I'm not aiming for a test or using this as a way to gain enterence to something else, just to fill in the time and to experience another language like a native English speaker usually can't.
Why? - Ricardo - 2007-07-17
yorkii Wrote:i think i have lost my direction recently. I know enough to get along with staff members, laugh along at jokes as I watch tv, read the odd book (be it a book aimed at school kids), have deep conversations with a girlfriend that does not speak English, and I am still studying. but why?Maybe it's inertia? Maybe you like it?
Sometimes people ask me why I study Japanese (instead of English, for example)... My answer is: I think I know enough English to enjoy reading, watching movies and talking in this language. I could surely improve, but the gain would be more "academic" than "practical". I think I could put that time to better use by doing other things - like learning Japanese. I want to read and understand spoken Japanese. When I get near this goal, I'll probably ask myself the same question you did...
Why? - _Qbe_ - 2007-07-17
I started learning Japanese in July 2004 solely as a diversion, triggered by a combination of overwork, no pay raise and discovery of Japan as portrayed by the video game Shenmue. I've always loved languages but never had any interest in any Asian language. The languages and countries were just too strange. But Shenmue grabbed me. I picked up Pimsleur Japanese from the library; when I heard the first lesson, I knew that I wouldn't spend more than a few weeks on this strange-sounding language. But I was wrong.
I've continued learning Japanese mainly because it's an addiction. Learning is my drug. Learning new and interesting material makes me feel good, better than anything else. I've spent much of my life chasing that feeling. Japanese is just difficult enough that I have to work a little harder, but the reward is that much better. And then when I can use what I learn, it's even better. Deciphering Japanese text, understanding bits of spoken Japanese, using my new knowledge in conversation, all pay extra rewards. Now it's been 3 years, and I can't imagine stopping. Japanese is too much fun to quit now.
Gaining knowledge for its own sake has been enough so far, but I want to do more now. Someday I'll come to visit Japan. Maybe I'll try to ramp up my skills enough to come and find a job for a while. Now that Sanseido Books has opened up a nice store in Chicago, I want to finish RTK and get reading. There are plenty of possibilities, and I'm looking forward to checking them out.
Why? - yorkii - 2007-07-17
synewave Wrote:If you were planning on using your Japanese skills to get you a job is there much other than being a translator?not sure...
synewave Wrote:I discounted staying here and not studying as that strikes me as a waste of time. Speaking from personal experience, it is! (just seen your latest post) I've "wasted" double the time you have!! 4 and a bit years in Japan but for the first 3 years I was a bit of a part time learner)I am unsure of what you mean in this section.. are you saying that you have wasted your 4 years in Japan if you are just going to go back home to be a primary school teacher? Are you just going to abandon all the studies that you did while you were out here?
synewave Wrote:Talking of being here forever, I got married last year. And no I won't be here forever. But one thing neither my wife nor I thought about fully before getting married was that while it's fine for me to live here while I'm young-ish and the same for her in the UK, neither of us really wants to die in a foreign land (sorry to continue the morbidity!). So while Japanese women are great in many respects, I should have added "willing to die in the UK?" to my check list.So you married a Japanese girl, but you think that there will be an inevitable divorce in the future?
synewave Wrote:Back home, while I thought I *might* be able to teach Japanese I've realized that university lecturers seem to have a ton of academic background re: Japanese culture / history / etc...Why couldn't you get a "ton of academic background" in the field if that's what you really want to do?
Why? - Istvan - 2007-07-17
Yorki Wrote:I also love to learn and tend to get fully absorbed in something that I like, trying to take it to the best level that I can. Unfortunately, I think too much about what I don't know rather than what I do. The "glass half full" pessimistic view maybe. thinking, "I'll never be that good," or, "I'll never understand that, I might as well give up."It is an interesting phenominon that the more you study and learn the more you realize you don't know anything, therefore the better you get the more you willl see the gaps and holes in your knowledge as opposed to being ignorant that the holes exist. Learning is a process and as such we all have phases we go through during that process. if it is really getting to you, take a break from it. It will always be there for you to come back to and learn later.
Yorki Wrote:How does it improve your employability though? that's something that I am having the most troubles with I think. In your case, you meantioned that you are not only studying Japanese but an MBA too. In this case I can see that having three skills (English, Japanese and whatever your MBA is) is hugely beneficial. But from my standpoint right now (and from what I have been told by other people) having just Japanese and English really won't get you too far...Living in Japan means that Japanese is THE language to know. So for almost any job in Japan, Japanese becomes important. Having said that, you also need a marketable skill. Just like English, if you apply for a job back home, and they say, " What can you do?" and you reply, "I can speak English." (I learned it from a book - sorry, Faulty Towers joke) it's not going to get you very far either. If you can't even speak English then you are really in trouble.
Yorki Wrote:Your right. I have no direction and as such make "having no direction" a major problem of mine. I have friends who are into totally different things, but they are really into them. be it music or education or travelling or spirituality. I feel that I am a very easily influenced, because I want direction like them. So, I think, "He has a good idea, I'll do what he is doing." only to come to realise that what they are doing isn't really for me. Does anyone know what I mean by this... kinda like following in someone's footsteps and then when they are not around any more, finding that what you were following isn't really what you wanted.Hmmm, I never really had any direction until is was 32. I wandered around, bumped into things, and had a great time. When I look back those were some of the best (and stupidest
) times in my life and I will treasure them always. Everyone is different. Some people pursue one thing single-mindedly forever...some people sample many different things and focuson a few...some people want to do everything...some people want to do nothing....you get the idea. Find what you like and don't worry about everyone else's way, go your own. It is your life after-all.Cheers
Why? - synewave - 2007-07-17
yorkii, just tried to send you a PM but my browser is giving me jip so not sure if it sent or not. Let me know.
Why? - yorkii - 2007-07-17
synewave Wrote:yorkii, just tried to send you a PM but my browser is giving me jip so not sure if it sent or not. Let me know.yea, I got it. thanks a lot for supplying such personal info.
/bow
Why? - synewave - 2007-07-17
Istvan Wrote:Hmmm, I never really had any direction until is was 32.If it's not too private, care to elaborate?
I am 32. Still directionless although my compass is pointing towards Scotland!
Why? - Istvan - 2007-07-17
synewave Wrote:If it's not too private, care to elaborate?Not too private at all, but likely too long
. If you ever come up Tokyo way (or if I ever head down Susono way), we can talk about it over beers if you like!Still, in a nutshell, after a wandering around until 30, I decided to come to Japan to Study Aikido full time for a year. I enjoyed it and stayed, and ended up getting a great Job after a couple of years. This job gave me direction in a career sense (IT Manager). I enjoyed this, but also found I enjoy Business and Management, hence the MBA. Still, even with that so-called direction, the compass changes. I will likely eventually end up back in Canada. I am at another period of change in my life, and will be looking at changing companies and direction again over the next year (likely stil in Japan though), and though the specifics are yet unknown, the general direction (Business and Management) will remain the same. Like you I got married last year, and that adds different levels and priorities. When I have children, this will also change the game.
I am nomadic at heart, and I know this. Part of me wants to fling away all of the rigid scheduled life of Tokyo and go live in the country. Part of me wants to start my own business. Part of me wants to wander around Japan. Part of me wants to buy a sailboat and circumnavigate the globe. Part of me wants to sleep for about 3 months!
I can satisfy these tendencies though. I picked up a small place out in the country that I can escape to on weekends. I ride a motorcycle and have toured most of Japan (though haven't done much riding in the past 1.5 years). Haven't got the business, sailing or sleeping part down yet, but picked up my Scuba ticket on my honeymoon and plan do do some diving around Japan. These excurisons allow me to maintain direction and keep me sane.Bottom line, the final destination is dead and we can't stop going in that direction. In the meantime, I plan to take care of my family, and do what is necessary to keep my sanity during that process, and perhaps one day get these little squigglies know as kanji down pat!
Cheers
Why? - ziggr - 2007-07-17
yorkii Wrote:Why?Speed Racer is the match, Godzilla is the fuse, and Yotsuba is the bomb.
Actually I started learning out of frustration. back in the 1990s, it appeared that Disney would never release the Miyazaki films, and Central Park Media couldn't get the rights sorted out for the rest of Utena. If I wanted to see Nausicaa or Utena, I needed to learn Japanese.
Why? - Christoph - 2007-07-17
_Qbe_ Wrote:I've continued learning Japanese mainly because it's an addiction. Learning is my drug. Learning new and interesting material makes me feel good, better than anything else. I've spent much of my life chasing that feeling. Japanese is just difficult enough that I have to work a little harder, but the reward is that much better. And then when I can use what I learn, it's even better. Deciphering Japanese text, understanding bits of spoken Japanese, using my new knowledge in conversation, all pay extra rewards. Now it's been 3 years, and I can't imagine stopping. Japanese is too much fun to quit now.This is very much the same for me, it's an addiction with amazingly satisfying benefits, I've only really recently reached a level where I feel that I can manage to play games (and read books... games are just more fun) entirely in Japanese, the feeling I get when something is explained and I understand is just awesome. There are of course sometimes where it's a bit hazy, but context usually allows for understanding in those cases.
It is amazing that some people recommend that you put off kanji (and with them: reading!) until a later stage in learning... how many words are you missing out on seeing by not attempting to read!?! they just fly at you.
Anyway, why do I study? outside being addicted to it (and a geek.)... well I know I'm a long way off the appropriate level just yet but give it a few years, and I'd like to think I could reach translator ability.
I just want to improve, self-improvement is the primary goal.
Why? - Kieron - 2007-07-17
I'm also doing this as a personal hobby. I'm essentially monolingual -- my terribly rusty Spanish doesn't count! -- which I'm not proud of. (Why yes, I am an American, how did you guess?) Setting aside some time to correct that seems worthwhile. Answering why I chose Japanese specifically turns into a long and rambling essay.... a few factors include liking the written language itself (would any of us be here if we didn't think the kanji were fundamentally interesting?), enjoying the works of a fair number of Japanese authors and artists that I'd like to understand without translation, and some residual frustration about my sloooooow progress learning Spanish so long ago that pushed me towards a very different language.
My primary interest is books and perhaps some games. (Not too fond of manga, though maybe I just haven't stumbled across the right title yet.) Looking forward to eventual travel as well, even if just visiting.
Why? - yorkii - 2007-07-18
thanks for your informative posts everyone and reassuring this still fairly angst-ridden 24 year old.
I guess I just like to worry about things. 取り越し苦労 is the word i have been called by my Japanese friends that i have rambled onto about how much I think I am failing.
I'll just stick with the learning as it is something that I really like. If something good comes of it, it will.
still, keep your "Why?" stories coming though, as I am a bit of a nosy neighbour
Why? - PParisi - 2007-07-19
I lived in Japan for four years and learned to speak and read at a basic level. It was very helpful but I envied those few "gaijin" who were able to read the Japanese newspapers. I tried to learn at a YMCA in Yokohama but their method of teaching consisted of repeatedly copying the kanji in question. There was no explanation of the kanjis as a whole, as one finds in books geared toward Westerners, so the whole process made zero sense to me. My mind shut down.
I unfortunately did not encounter James Heisig's books and component analysis until I returned to the States.
This site is remarkable. The reviewing tool is quick and I am impressed at how thoroughly the creators have incorporated learning theory into its design. Thank you, Mary Sisk Noguchi, for posting a link to this site!