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Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - aargh57 - 2010-11-01
OK, I've been really frustrated for a while now trying to start my first sentence pack as per AJATT. For example, I go to the yahoo dictionary page and type in one of the few kanji that I know the japanese pronunciation for, 今。 I navigate to a page with example sentences of 今, great. I get
今，ちょうど6時だ
It's just six o'clock (now).
Problem is, I don't know how to pronounce 時. (Okay I've got a feeling it's pronounced ji here but, you know what I mean.)
So, what do I do. All the sentences are that way. Do I cut and paste 時 and figure it out that way? It just seems excruciatingly slow and I thought this was where we were supposed to pick up speed after RTK1.
To help mine sentences I bought "Breaking into Japanese Literature" but most of those sentences seem too complex. I've got phrase books but I have the same problem with those as with the yahoo online dictionary. I'm close to buying Khatz's sentence starter pack. I looked into that subsrs thing but the first download I got to said that the MAC 10.4 wasn't supported.
Anyway, any help would be appreciated.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - Dustin_Calgary - 2010-11-01
Yes, if sample sentences have unknown kanji in them you'll just have to look them up individually.
If the beginning of Breaking into Japanese Literature is too advanced for you I'd spend more time getting the grammar in. If your grammar is in really good shape and it's just a vocab issue, then it will start slow but will speed up quickly as you cover most of the basics.
There is still a long haul in for you. I'd argue RTK might be one of the quickest parts of learning Japanese. I also personally like creating my own sentence packs then buying some or using pre-made ones. These will fit with exactly what I am learning rather than just trying to cram all the unknowns from someone elses sentence pack.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - Asriel - 2010-11-01
I might just go and add a bunch of vocab words. I'm not sure if you've gone through RTK, or how you're learning the kanji, but learning a bunch of vocab along with the kanji, you can learn the readings and vocab at the same time.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, that's the entire goal of KO2001 and Kore2000 (Cangy's sorted list)
Check those out, they'll introduce the kanji in an order so you don't (shouldn't?) have kanji that you don't know in the sentences. Once you're done, you should be in good shape to learn a bunch of other stuff.
Also: if you're having troubles with 6時, then I would probably suggest going through some basic things like vocab/grammar/etc. Maybe tae kim's guide to grammar or however people are doing it these days.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - aargh57 - 2010-11-01
Thanks Dustin. By getting the grammar in I assume you mean more of just learning the sentence structure? I was hoping to do this more just with the sentences then by going back to the grammar books. I just made a card and I'm not sure if this is how you go about it. I got this one from the yahoo online dictionary and had to go back and find out how to say 番 and 計画. Is this too long of a sentence for me to be starting with?
Front:
どれが一番いい計画だろうか
Back:
どれが つがい いい けいかく だろうか
which pair good (make) plans
I wonder which is the best plan?
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - aargh57 - 2010-11-01
Asriel,
I've went through RTK1 and have a little bit of vocab. I did the Rosetta Stone a couple of times before I started on RTK and have done some other stuff(I work in Japan 1/2 the year for the last 3 years but my work environment is not Japanese). I can speak a little bit but I'll check out those things you've mentioned.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - Asriel - 2010-11-01
I would definitely suggest learning some of the basics first. I'm not saying go and join a class or read a textbook, but definitely at least knowing some basic sentence structure and vocab (super important) is important.
You don't want to add things wrong, either
どれが一番いいだろうか
Your final end translation was right but
一番 == いちばん =/= つがい
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - aargh57 - 2010-11-01
Asriel,
Thanks, that's exactly the stuff I want to avoid doing. That's why, to me, AJATT is a little frustrating. I want to make sure I'm pronouncing the sentences right or there's no point in doing them. That's why I was thinking of buying Khatz's starter pack, to make sure I wasn't learning thing's wrong right off the bat.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - quincy - 2010-11-01
I don't know where you're getting the hiragana conversions, but many programs won't properly handle counter words (番、日、匹). Read this for more information. Since it sounds like you're still an absolute beginner I recommend you get your first sentences from that website. Also, when you make a sentence card, it should only be for one new fact. Example: 迷子になってしまった if you don't know 迷子 or しまう then make two cards for this sentence, with the part you're testing underlined.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - Asriel - 2010-11-01
Well there's another reason Kore2k or KO2k would help you out.
They're both professionally produced and (at least Core2k) have audio, so you can get some listening practice out of the way as well.
KO2k costs money, but you can find Core2k at http://www.smart.fm/ . Or, you can search for Kore here on the forum, find the right things to download and sort, add to Anki (or your SRS of choice) and have at it.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - Dustin_Calgary - 2010-11-01
Normally for starter sentences, the length isn't important. What is important is how much new information is there.
Generally I only have one new piece of information per sentence. This can either be a new piece of vocab, or a new piece of grammar ( or just a new usage of something you already knew )
The less new information per sentence the easier time you will have reviewing.
Keep in mind, the best use of an SRS is to remember the information we have already learnt. With grammar this means you need to learn the usage before just coming across it and adding it most of the time. Once you have a firm basis of the basic grammar structures it will make your life a lot easier adding sentences.
You can of course use the SRS with the information in your grammar books for now, and then just start a new deck once you've finished with that, that way you're still using an srs and getting used to the daily reviews and other advantages of the system.
Good luck!
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - rich_f - 2010-11-02
If you're going to buy anything, buy a good textbook. If you're having trouble reading really basic stuff, it sounds like you need a good combination of vocab and grammar. My experience was that a good basic textbook gave me a nice combo of both to get me "over the hump," if you will. They're also good because they've been professionally edited at some point. They're not perfect, but they're Good Enough, and will get you going. (But avoid Japanese for Busy People. There are MUCH better texbooks out there. There are many threads on textbooks here. Just do a search on textbook.)
After that, you can move on to other stuff.
Also, for figuring out readings, use FireFox and download RikaiChan (the plugin) for FireFox. Then you can just hover over any JP word you come across, and it will tell you what is means (roughly), and it will suggest readings for it which are 95% correct: I won't vouch for the other 5%.
Go hit the Essential Resources thread. There's a crapton of stuff there. It's stickied in the Learning Resources forum, and worth a read.
And don't get too wrapped up in What Khatz Says to Do. Some of his ideas will work for you, some won't. What I do agree with is this:
1. Keep your sentences short. Long sentences will bog you down.
2. Don't introduce too much new material in a sentence. 1 or 2 things per sentence.
3. (for later on) Make your sentences as interesting as possible.
The rest is up to you, really. Just make sure it's edited native source material, and stay the hell away from the Tanaka corpus.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - Taurus - 2010-11-02
Just to echo what other people have been saying, you can get a lot of simple sentences from textbooks - which usually have the advantage of a decent grammar description and sentences that gradually advance in complexity. I started out with Minna no Nihongo and then Kanzen Master JLPT level 3 (N4), and it was only really after that that I branched out into proper sentence mining. (Although I had to convert a lot of those textbook sentences from kana to kanji by looking stuff up in the dictionary.)
You can also use pre-existing decks/databases of sentences which will have the correct readings in them. The way I've done this is not to use the deck as is, but to export the deck to an Excel file, and then mined that file, cutting and pasting into my existing sentence deck.
And if you want to look up the readings, you can use a dictionary. I have found a quick and easy way of looking stuff up to be JWPce - just install it, and then cut and paste the words you want to look up, and then use the dictionary lookup function. I guess Rikaichan would probably be quicker, but I don't like Firefox.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - FooSoft - 2010-11-02
I wouldn't bother trying to mine sentences from the very beginning if you don't already have some familiarity with how the grammar works and some basic vocab unless it's from a textbook or some other made-for-learning material. Otherwise it will be frustrating because you won't be able to actually enjoy the material and you will constantly be reminded about how little you actually know.
Start with a pre-made sentence pack like KO2001, or Smart.fm sentences. You won't learn things incorrectly (because there is a correct English translation provided), and the sentences are so much easier than what you can encounter in the "wild". Once you are a little bit more comfortable with the premade sentences (a couple thousand should probably be good enough, don't worry they go pretty quick), you can go into something native.
At that point I would consider just ditching sentences and going for pure vocab, but it's up to you.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - bizarrojosh - 2010-11-02
I am a fan of sentence decks (especially in the very beginning) but with that said I also have a strictly vocab deck with the example sentence plug in to help.
My suggestion is to mine a textbook or something. You need to start somewhere so why not have all the work done for you by someone else? You could buy the my first sentence deck from AJATT but I don't know about the quality or what's inside. You need to learn grammar with your first few new words so that you can start to navigate through texts.
I believe that you shouldn't worry about the amount of vocabulary in the beginning but work on sentence structure and verb conjugations using a minimalist, yet varied, set of vocab. I don't want to recommend a specific book, but focus on the grammar and work your way up from there. Once you have a good hold on the grammar then start working on your vocab deck (or do the vocab deck as a secondary thing to your grammar study). That way when you start actually sentence mining the grammar is intelligible, all you have to do is the simple task of learning the meaning of words (and believe me, it is very simple to learn new words)
Have fun and don't get overwhelmed. It takes time.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - prink - 2010-11-02
When in doubt, I use this site: http://text-to-speech.imtranslator.net/
My Japanese professors recommended me this website a while ago. The text to speech definitely isn't perfect, but so far it has always delivered to me the correct pitch and kanji reading. I go as far as the audio for sentences with Camtasia Studio and insert it into my cards.
As others have already said, you should start with sentences from a textbook and branch out from there. That way you have some explanations, which will help you with your understanding of basic grammar, vocab and kanji. I used Genki at first. It isn't that great, but it does the job. Plus, there are already Anki decks with audio for the vocab for both Genki books.
Also, if you're practicing writing kanji, don't practice from computer fonts. Use this website: http://www.saiga-jp.com/kanji_dictionary.html
Click the magnifying glass next to the kanji to see it. The other button does stroke order.
Good luck with your studies.
Having tons of trouble starting a sentence pack - rachels - 2010-11-03
If you want good beginner sentences, I suggest having a look at this link:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=2609