+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Remembering the Kanji (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-7.html)
+--- Thread: Halfway through - my evaluation (/thread-6592.html)
Halfway through - my evaluation - Chaze - 2010-10-25
I just recently passed the halfway mark of the first volume. Here are some thoughts I have on Heisig's method, especially using this website:
Keywords
As I am not a native speaker, I often don't know Heisig's keywords. That isn't so bad actually, as I tend to associate kanji with concepts rather than a single word. However, there's an annoyingly large number of synonyms, which become a problem when you're not so confident in English. I can overcome this by incorporating clues into my stories to distinguish synonyms (usually relying on wordplays). The reward for this additional work is the acquisition of some new English vocabulary.
However, I'm having doubts that English is such a good source language to be basing keywords on, mainly due to its high ambiguity. If your native tongue seems more suited, you should carefully consider what language to use.
Stories
Having read a few thousand stories on this website, I adapted what I consider bad habits:
Just using a single sentence, slogan or rhyme. Even if they sound compelling at the moment you make up your mnemonic, for me they tend not to work.
Better than a sentence, is always an image. And I really have to force myself to visualize it.
Describing this image in form of text, often sounds very arbitrary and incomprehensive. But our - or at least my - brain works different. What you remember is not the words you are reading, but the image that is created in your mind. So please don't hesitate to share 'stories' that sound rather boring.
If a single image doesn't suffice, it always helped me to turn it into a more complex story (with actions).
The "Spaced Repetition Sieve"
A technique I subconciously started using, is sieving out difficult kanji through this website. I went through the list really quick, only thinking about a single image, or sentence for all kanji. I then added a whole lot of new frames at once, and went through those the next day. For the first repetition, I then fail maybe 80% of those. But those 20% that pass, are sieved out: For those, I won't need a complicated story.
For the kanji that I don't remember, I create a more complex image. If it still fails, I will eventually turn it into an actual story. By this process of iteration, I use the right amount of complexity for each kanji.. or at least that is my theory. Does anyone else use a similar method? Any objections?
Halfway through - my evaluation - EratiK - 2010-10-25
Chaze Wrote:The "Spaced Repetition Sieve"About the keywords, I'm sure Heisig chose English because its his native tongue, and Fabrice followed because it is the international language. If you need the German keywords spreadsheet, just ask.
A technique I subconciously started using, is sieving out difficult kanji through this website. I went through the list really quick, only thinking about a single image, or sentence for all kanji. I then added a whole lot of new frames at once, and went through those the next day. For the first repetition, I then fail maybe 80% of those. But those 20% that pass, are sieved out: For those, I won't need a complicated story.
For the kanji that I don't remember, I create a more complex image. If it still fails, I will eventually turn it into an actual story. By this process of iteration, I use the right amount of complexity for each kanji.. or at least that is my theory. Does anyone else use a similar method? Any objections?
About the sieve, it seems like a waste of time a little. The extra (small?) amount of time you use exposing yourself to kanji and failing could be used to tune up a story directly. I know I would feel devastated if I failed 80%. Anyway, with a little practice (500 more), you'll start to feel what kind of story/image is required by each kanji (so you won't be needing to sieve anymore). And the SRS will take care of the exposure anyway, so pre-expose yourself to fail, I don't understand, but every one is different.
EDIT: but the idea is good, I guess it makes you copy them. I tend to forget people don't write down their story next to the kanji on paper pages like me, so, yes, your process is a good excuse to write the kanji down once (better than just visual exposure). Just make sure it doesn't take too long to do.
Halfway through - my evaluation - Proxx - 2010-10-25
Chaze Wrote:KeywordsI can absolutely second that. I had the same problems. On the other hand, it's sometimes difficult to use all the great stories on this site if you have keywords in a different language. And yeah, you'll learn some English words "for free".
As I am not a native speaker, I often don't know Heisig's keywords. That isn't so bad actually, as I tend to associate kanji with concepts rather than a single word. However, there's an annoyingly large number of synonyms, which become a problem when you're not so confident in English. I can overcome this by incorporating clues into my stories to distinguish synonyms (usually relying on wordplays). The reward for this additional work is the acquisition of some new English vocabulary.
If you use Anki or if you can modify keywords here on rtk, I'd suggest you add a German translation for difficult or synonymous English words. That helps to concentrate on Kanji, if you don't have to look up the English word every time.
Halfway through - my evaluation - Chaze - 2010-10-25
EratiK Wrote:If you need the German keywords spreadsheet, just ask.I knew about the existance of German keywords even before I started. I made the choice to use English ones back then, mainly because of the ability to interact with this community. I have to admit that I was overly confident of my English skills at that point, and wouldn't have expected it to be so troublesome.
Changing the language after more than 1100 kanji doesn't sound like such a good idea. Even if I just replace single kanji, this would cause some troubles. How would I fit German keywords in English stories?
Proxx Wrote:I'd suggest you add a German translation for difficult or synonymous English words.When Fabrice has implemented the custom keyword feature, I plan to add the German translation in brackets, while keeping the English keyword as thei kanji's meaning.
EratiK Wrote:I tend to forget people don't write down their story next to the kanji on paper pages like me.I like the idea, haven't really thought about that. Maybe by writing it on paper, I will remember it more easily, I definitely will try that!
Halfway through - my evaluation - KanjiDevourer - 2010-10-25
Chaze Wrote:Having read a few thousand stories on this website, I adapted what I consider bad habits:I tended to do develop that same bad habit, I absolutely agree. Very recognisable.
Just using a single sentence, slogan or rhyme. Even if they sound compelling at the moment you make up your mnemonic, for me they tend not to work.
Better than a sentence, is always an image. And I really have to force myself to visualize it.
I even changed to looking at a kanji, finding out its primitives, devising my own imaginative story and only then looking at Heisig. If I can't come up with a satisfying story, I check whether Heisig's is fine, but usually they are more "storylike" and less imaginative than I like. If I'm having a really hard time I also look at this site for nice ideas. The stories here are even more storylike, but occasionally there are some very good finds for new or renamed primitives, such as using "Socrates" for "speaking, words, speech" 言, finds which are much more visual.
For the keywords, some are completely unknown to me as well. Usually I look up its meaning and attach a word in my native language, if necessary. I even use native words in my stories at times, or proverbs, sayings, etc.. don't know if this is going to work.
Halfway through - my evaluation - adoette - 2010-10-28
I do something similar with mine. Since I'm nearing 600 frames Heisig has abandoned me storywise. I go two pages at a time, making up my own stories and writing them down on notebook paper next to frame number. After two pages (approx 10-12 kanji) I pull out corresponding flashcards and run through them, from keyword only. If I need the story, they're available, but if I can't write them right then, it usually isn't a very good one.
Then I turn to you guys for help
. I don't put them in RevTK until I've managed them once with the flashcards.And even as a native English speaker, I feel your pain with the synonyms. Before/In front, rebuke/chastise/admonish, morning sun/rising sun/etc. It's annoying to everyone!
Halfway through - my evaluation - PATRICKRL - 2010-10-31
I have no idea why he decided to have both "each" and "every" as keywords. Even most native speakers don't consciously realize the distinction between them.