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+--- Thread: Looking for some guidance. (/thread-6590.html)
Looking for some guidance. - dfmoss - 2010-10-24
Hello,
I finished RTK about 3 or 4 weeks ago. As the follow up, I purchased Kanji Odyssey 2001 books 1 and 2 and have been sentence-mining with them. I am currently just manually typing in sentences into Anki and skipping sentences with kanji that I already know (vocabulary that I know after studying on my own time). I know that the KO2001 thread was a debacle (the anki deck had only GIF images of characters and a lot of people were upset about copyright issues and the like). All that I can say is that sentence-mining has been very slow and that the sentences are a bit too easy, though the kanji readings are still crucial. Does anybody have any advice? Should I continue manually importing sentences into anki, or is there a more efficient way of doing things that anybody could recommend?
any help at all. Even the slightest would be so welcome it's not even funny.\
-d
Looking for some guidance. - nadiatims - 2010-10-24
I don't own that book, so keep that in mind while taking this advice. I was of the impression that the Kanji Odyssey books aim at teaching vocabulary and kanji readings in a systematic fashion. So I think the most time efficient way to learn the material in that book would simply be to read the example sentences while covering any English translations to test yourself on comprehension of the vocab. Then add the vocabulary to a vocabulary srs deck at a rate that you can comfortably review. As you said sentence mining has been slow and the sentences are too easy, so don't bother. Do the KO books cover all the 2000 odd Jouyou kanji? If they do then the main benefit will be teaching you the most common kanji readings necessary for reading real material, as well as teaching you a nice sized chunk of vocab. The fastest way I'm aware of to make vocab cards, is to type the words here and use rikaichan (firefox add-on) to save the words, readings and definitions to a textfile for import into anki. Creation time per card is a couple of seconds depending on how fast you can type in Japanese.
Looking for some guidance. - akagisempai - 2010-11-18
Here is the best suggestion I can give you. I don't know where you are location wise, but I'd suggest you buy a lot of Manga or get your hands on some Japanese magazines. I am not an Otaku, but I will tell you why its a good idea.
What i've noticed about SRSing and sentence mining, is that it basically reproduces something that we do all the time: Read sentences.
In a sit down session SRSing random sentences out of context, I find that mixing up "Sentence SRSing" through regular reading is similar. Take the following example.
I watched the anime for Death Note a few years ago. Recently, I bought a few of the Manga, which is actually the first manga I ever purchased. As i started reading slowly through the first book, ( I read with a highlighter), you will notice dozens and dozens of Kanji repeated over and over. Namely, different ways of saying "I" or "we" "there" "that" and so on. But Death Note is a very "adult" manga, and there are tons of Kanji related to "world" "police" "death" "becoming" "belief" "spirituality" etc. I would lookup the meanings of these and then make a note.
What happened is that pretty much all these kanji are repeated throughout the book over and over. As I scanned through sentences, I was doing a sort of "mini-mining" in a MUCH more interesting way. If you see "boku" 僕 one hundred times in twenty pages, its like SRSing for that Kanji repeatedly. It's the same thing with certain sentence patterns.
I am not saying this to say stop sentence mining. I think that canned sentences (if you are going to be reading so many anyways) are good if you are actively using them, writing them and not just remembering the patterns.
Through Manga (or maybe a magazine, whatever) you can sure pick some sentences to mine, but what I find is that a lot of reading of material with similar themes, is a sort of mining in itself. Then when I find some tough beast of a sentence, I might drop that in Anki to really remember.
僕は、世界中で有名になりたい。 (boku wa, sekai chuu de yumena ni naritai) - I want to become world famous.
This is from Death Note, and why I dropped it here, is that its relatively simple I guess. But I didn't even SRS this, I just remembered it as it is, because there are so many sentences about "world", and "becoming" mixed in.
Either way, I feel like i'm rambling, but whenever I read through a lot of these forums, I realize canned systems sort of create context, but I feel that really good context is from these sorts of things, that you can mix with your SRS.
In other words, if you feel like you are going slow, go faster. I live in Japan, and I find that seeing Japanese very often is "SRSing". Skimming through magazines, is "SRSing" in some way, I don't know how well you speak Japanese yet, or are able to read it, but I for one cannot imagine typing so many sentences (initially) when I have hundreds of thousands already printed for me.
Through manga, or maybe children's books, you can find hundreds of sentences that you DONT need to type into anything, but will give you a monster basic vocabulary. What I'm saying is that, you've gone through the effort of learning RTk1, why not work faster?
So children's books, interesting manga, maybe short Japanese articles about the same topics. These are things that you can "mine" without too much typing. If there is a massive sentence you cannot figure out, i'd say mine that. Get me?
I've learned that so many sentences are fragments of others, that sentence mining I only do for evil sentences, which I will barely use anyways until i do my TED presentation here in Japan : p
How's your speaking and listening comprehension? Just curious.
cheers
Looking for some guidance. - oktane - 2010-11-18
akagisempai Wrote:僕は、世界中で有名になりたい。 (boku wa, sekai chuu de yumena ni naritai) - I want to become world famous.I think your readings are a bit off, isn't it read "boku wa sekaijuu de yuumei ni naritai"?
This is from Death Note, and why I dropped it here, is that its relatively simple I guess. But I didn't even SRS this, I just remembered it as it is, because there are so many sentences about "world", and "becoming" mixed in.
Looking for some guidance. - Womacks23 - 2010-11-18
^
Haha new guy is picky.
Looking for some guidance. - chamcham - 2010-11-18
Japanese blogs are another good source of sentences.
Just pick a topic you like and find a blog that talks about it.
blogspot.com and ameblo.jp are 2 very big blog sites with tons of japanese blogs.
Also, there is Hiragana Times magazine (http://www.hiraganatimes.com). All articles are written in English and Japanese (with furigana for all kanji).
Or you can try manga like the other person suggested.
Or you can watch FNN news (like http://www.fnn-news.com), it has video AND word-for-word transcripts for many stories.
Or you can try downloading japanese subtitles for j-dramas. Very good for conversational japanese.
The point is to find something you like and go at it.
Good luck.
Looking for some guidance. - wemaydance - 2010-11-18
My level of Japanese is much lower than yours but I've been watching a lot of dramas (mysoju.com) and I like to read blogs too. Some other good blog hosts are Petit.jp (http://www.petit.cc/hiroba_pmp/) and Jugem (http://jugem.jp/fun/twitter/). They both have lots of pictures on their blogs, as they are mostly photoblogs.
Also if you like Japanese movies you can find English/JP scripts online. The best way to find the Japanese script is to Google a line in Japanese and it'll come right up! I think that way you can get sentences from them easily.
good luck!
Looking for some guidance. - nest0r - 2010-11-18
dfmoss Wrote:Hello,The KO2001 deck has a text version in the first post of the same thread, this was quickly addressed. The copyright issues remain the same, but if you, like me, have purchased the books, I say follow your own conscience/practical concerns. ;p I think it's a great deck—I mean um, if I used it, which I don't because that would be wrong, very wrong—I would think it was useful as a kind of corpus of sentences to unsuspend, though not as good as cangy's kore decks from the Core 2k/6k sentences on smart.fm.
I finished RTK about 3 or 4 weeks ago. As the follow up, I purchased Kanji Odyssey 2001 books 1 and 2 and have been sentence-mining with them. I am currently just manually typing in sentences into Anki and skipping sentences with kanji that I already know (vocabulary that I know after studying on my own time). I know that the KO2001 thread was a debacle (the anki deck had only GIF images of characters and a lot of people were upset about copyright issues and the like). All that I can say is that sentence-mining has been very slow and that the sentences are a bit too easy, though the kanji readings are still crucial. Does anybody have any advice? Should I continue manually importing sentences into anki, or is there a more efficient way of doing things that anybody could recommend?
any help at all. Even the slightest would be so welcome it's not even funny.
-d
Have you already a good sense of grammar? If not I recommend Japanese the Manga Way, which I hear is in ebook format somewhere, though it's also an excellent purchase, amazing value for the price.
Also, 8555 sentence shared deck on Anki of DoJG books, and subs2srs.
Looking for some guidance. - akagisempai - 2010-11-18
To Oktane.
I learned it as Seikaijuu as well. I was double checking with a native speaker recently, and she didn't understand when I said Sekaijuu, but I typed it for he, then she said "Oh Seikaichuu!" and immediately understood. I guess the pronounciations are interchangeable, but I can't be 100% sure.
As for Yuumei vs yumena, I guess in context, its understood you want to be a "yumenajin" versus just famous (yuumei) hence the "yumena", but I will check again.
respect!
Looking for some guidance. - zigmonty - 2010-11-19
akagisempai Wrote:To Oktane.Odd, i learned it as せかいじゅう as well. Rikaichan agrees (not that its readings are always completely reliable). Google's IME recognises せかいじゅう as a word (it converts to 世界中 in one block), but せかいちゅう decodes as 世界 + 中.
I learned it as Seikaijuu as well. I was double checking with a native speaker recently, and she didn't understand when I said Sekaijuu, but I typed it for he, then she said "Oh Seikaichuu!" and immediately understood. I guess the pronounciations are interchangeable, but I can't be 100% sure.
As for Yuumei vs yumena, I guess in context, its understood you want to be a "yumenajin" versus just famous (yuumei) hence the "yumena", but I will check again.
respect!
Any native speakers want to chime in?
Looking for some guidance. - nest0r - 2010-11-19
akagisempai Wrote:To Oktane.じん?
I learned it as Seikaijuu as well. I was double checking with a native speaker recently, and she didn't understand when I said Sekaijuu, but I typed it for he, then she said "Oh Seikaichuu!" and immediately understood. I guess the pronounciations are interchangeable, but I can't be 100% sure.
As for Yuumei vs yumena, I guess in context, its understood you want to be a "yumenajin" versus just famous (yuumei) hence the "yumena", but I will check again.
respect!
Looking for some guidance. - magamo - 2010-11-19
akagisempai Wrote:To Oktane.世界中 is せかいじゅう in kana. The vowel in せ (se) is sort of like the Canadian "Eh?" stopped in the middle. It's also similar to the vowel in "milk" spoken in some dialects of English.
I learned it as Seikaijuu as well. I was double checking with a native speaker recently, and she didn't understand when I said Sekaijuu, but I typed it for he, then she said "Oh Seikaichuu!" and immediately understood. I guess the pronounciations are interchangeable, but I can't be 100% sure.
As for Yuumei vs yumena, I guess in context, its understood you want to be a "yumenajin" versus just famous (yuumei) hence the "yumena", but I will check again.
respect!
Also, if the native speaker's pronunciation sounded like せかいちゅう rather than せかいじゅう, it might be because you expected the "j" sound for the じゅう part.
It doesn't seem like many Japanese courses or textbooks teach this, but じゅう is pronounced differently depending mainly on the position it appears in. The first kind is like "jew" as you probably already learned. But the consonant part (i.e., "j") can turn into what is similar to the sound of "s" as in "closure," "pleasure," "measure," etc. or "ge" in "garage." There is a rule when to choose which. If you're learning standard Japanese, you should use the second type for 世界中, not the "j" sound used in "Japanese."
Basically, the Japanese "j" sound has two versions regardless of the vowel it's followed by. So じゃ and such also come in two varieties each.
As for the reading of 有名, it's ゆうめい (like you-may).
Looking for some guidance. - Womacks23 - 2010-11-19
Before 1956, the correct reading for 世界中 was せかいぢゅう.
Looking for some guidance. - zigmonty - 2010-11-19
Womacks23 Wrote:Before 1956, the correct reading for 世界中 was せかいぢゅう.Well that makes a whole lot more sense than じゅう, its sorta just the voiced version of the normal onyomi of 中.
Does the じゅう vs ぢゅう thing correspond to the different pronunciations you mentioned magamo? Ie is it typically kanji that would normally be pronounced ちゅう that use the second sound you mentioned (which often sounds like mix of z and sh sound to my ears)? Or is there no relation? What's the rule?
Looking for some guidance. - vonPeterhof - 2010-11-19
zigmonty Wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YotsuganaWomacks23 Wrote:Before 1956, the correct reading for 世界中 was せかいぢゅう.Well that makes a whole lot more sense than じゅう, its sorta just the voiced version of the normal onyomi of 中.
Does the じゅう vs ぢゅう thing correspond to the different pronunciations you mentioned magamo? Ie is it typically kanji that would normally be pronounced ちゅう that use the second sound you mentioned (which often sounds like mix of z and sh sound to my ears)? Or is there no relation? What's the rule?
Looking for some guidance. - magamo - 2010-11-19
zigmonty Wrote:Does the じゅう vs ぢゅう thing correspond to the different pronunciations you mentioned magamo? Ie is it typically kanji that would normally be pronounced ちゅう that use the second sound you mentioned (which often sounds like mix of z and sh sound to my ears)? Or is there no relation? What's the rule?No, it doesn't. The two kinds of "j" sounds are allophones of a single phoneme.
If you're not familiar with allophones, a canonical example in English is the two types of "p" sounds. Native speakers of many dialects pronounce "p" in "pin" in a different way than if they say "spin." Because they belong to the same phoneme, it can be difficult for native speakers to even notice they're using two different sounds. But they do it without knowing it. If your mother tongue uses these two sounds as two different phonemes, you hear them as quite different sounds.
A similar thing is happening in the "j" sound in Japanese. In English, "j" and the voiced "sh" (which you described as a mix of "z" and "sh") are different phonemes. But in Japanese, they're treated like the two different "p"s in English, i.e., they are both "j". Native Japanese speakers use different "j"s in the right places without knowing they have two sounds for "j". Because I learned English, I can hear the difference easily. But if I didn't speak English, I wouldn't even notice. (By the way, English teachers in Japan don't teach this fact either, so pretty much every high school student doesn't even know English has "j" and "z+sh".)
As for when to which, a good rule of thumb is that you use the "j" version when it's used when the speaker "feels" it's kind of the beginning of a meaning chunk (It's the head of a word in many cases) or when it follows ん.
The same rule applies to some other sounds too. It doesn't change the meaning of a word if you use the wrong version. It's just it sounds something is "off" and you don't have the same kind of intuitive understanding of grammar.
If akagisempai's native language uses the two versions of Japanese "j" as different phonemes like English but was taught that the Japanese had only one "j", maybe that's why he thought his friend said ちゅう instead of じゅう.
Looking for some guidance. - zigmonty - 2010-11-19
Wow, thanks magamo. Awesomely helpful response. I can more or less hear all these different allophones in japanese but i've never found anything that actually discussed them (well, without using IPA guides which are meaningless to me). So i'd sorta written them off as just personal differences.
Looking for some guidance. - dfmoss - 2010-11-19
nest0r Wrote:NestOr, I can't for the life of me find the text file of ko2001. is it there in the original posting? I can't even find the posting! This board is sometimes kind of hard to navigate. I'm not looking for anything with extra audio files or anything. I just want KO2001 as an anki deck in text.dfmoss Wrote:Hello,The KO2001 deck has a text version in the first post of the same thread, this was quickly addressed. The copyright issues remain the same, but if you, like me, have purchased the books, I say follow your own conscience/practical concerns. ;p I think it's a great deck—I mean um, if I used it, which I don't because that would be wrong, very wrong—I would think it was useful as a kind of corpus of sentences to unsuspend, though not as good as cangy's kore decks from the Core 2k/6k sentences on smart.fm.
I finished RTK about 3 or 4 weeks ago. As the follow up, I purchased Kanji Odyssey 2001 books 1 and 2 and have been sentence-mining with them. I am currently just manually typing in sentences into Anki and skipping sentences with kanji that I already know (vocabulary that I know after studying on my own time). I know that the KO2001 thread was a debacle (the anki deck had only GIF images of characters and a lot of people were upset about copyright issues and the like). All that I can say is that sentence-mining has been very slow and that the sentences are a bit too easy, though the kanji readings are still crucial. Does anybody have any advice? Should I continue manually importing sentences into anki, or is there a more efficient way of doing things that anybody could recommend?
any help at all. Even the slightest would be so welcome it's not even funny.
-d
Have you already a good sense of grammar? If not I recommend Japanese the Manga Way, which I hear is in ebook format somewhere, though it's also an excellent purchase, amazing value for the price.
Also, 8555 sentence shared deck on Anki of DoJG books, and subs2srs.
Thanks!
Looking for some guidance. - xaarg - 2010-11-19
dfmoss Wrote:NestOr, I can't for the life of me find the text file of ko2001. is it there in the original posting? I can't even find the posting!Go to http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3283 and look for "The deck with Japanese as text".
Looking for some guidance. - KanjiDevourer - 2010-11-19
xaarg Wrote:That link has expired, but you can find a working one on the RevTK wiki (lowest link).dfmoss Wrote:NestOr, I can't for the life of me find the text file of ko2001. is it there in the original posting? I can't even find the posting!Go to http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3283 and look for "The deck with Japanese as text".
I recommend using the image deck for reviews (over here), and merging the deck that was converted to text with it, since the text undoubtedly contains errors. The text version fields are very handy though to be able to search. But as I said, I'd use the image fields for reviewing, and the text fields for searching.
If you like it, buy it.
Looking for some guidance. - nest0r - 2010-11-19
KanjiDevourer Wrote:I think the text version is already merged? Min--my friend's is, and they don't remember doing it themselves.xaarg Wrote:That link has expired, but you can find a working one on the RevTK wiki (lowest link).dfmoss Wrote:NestOr, I can't for the life of me find the text file of ko2001. is it there in the original posting? I can't even find the posting!Go to http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3283 and look for "The deck with Japanese as text".
I recommend using the image deck for reviews (over here), and merging the deck that was converted to text with it, since the text undoubtedly contains errors. The text version fields are very handy though to be able to search. But as I said, I'd use the image fields for reviewing, and the text fields for searching.
If you like it, buy it.