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+--- Thread: Is RTK right for me? (/thread-6522.html)
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Is RTK right for me? - Steffan - 2010-10-13
Hello there!
I have a question about RTK1.
Let's say I don't really care much for writing kanji, but that I just need to be able to read and recognize them.
Because let's face it, handwriting is disappearing nowadays and typing Japanese on a computer is extremely easy. Especially in Japan, virtually everyone uses smartphones and iPads and whatnot to type messages, handwriting is a thing of the past.
I've went over the first 70-or-so kanji with RTK1, and to me it seems that a big focus of the book is that it teaches you how to write the kanji.
Now for my actual question:
Do you recommend RTK if one only wants to be able to read and understand kanji?
I do admit that RTK is a nice way to remember what the kanji looks like, but the single biggest flaw for me is that it doesn't give readings. (I've heard that RTK2 does, but I've also heard that it's not a very good book.)
While attempting to read Japanese texts on the internet, I've sometimes seen kanji I learned with RTK. But I only know the english keyword, so I still have no idea what the text is actually saying.
Doesn't this kind of defeat the point of RTK?
Please, enlighten me~!
Is RTK right for me? - EratiK - 2010-10-13
Hey Steffan.
No, actually, it kind of is the whole point of RTK.
Maybe by reading random texts on the internet, you might have seen the keywords you learned have actually something to do with the actual meaning of the compound. Which means learning the keywords of RTK is actually a "pre-learning" of all the vocabulary you'll ever learn (it makes the process of learning and remembering vocabulary much quicker than if you hadn't studied Heisig).
So yes, writing is boring, but as a mean of production, it also helps retention (and isn't that much an effort to do, you'll see when trying it).
Don't worry, you're not the first one to have these objections. The point of separating the learning of meaning and readings is to make the task easier (for example, I try to learn 300 kanjis through traditional method (stroke order plus meanings plus readings) for 3 months, and failed).
But if you search the topics on the forum, you'll find something call RTK lite, which might resolve all your problems: it's easy and quick (and yes, you have to write -- but it's a good exercice on the long term (especially if you want to spell to Japanese speakers). It consists of the 1000 most frequent kanji from RTK. Twice as less kanji = done two times faster.
Is RTK right for me? - andres9888 - 2010-10-13
When you know how to read you will be able to write,type, and recognize much easier.
Is RTK right for me? - truando - 2010-10-13
Don't underestimate the power of writing. It helps memorizing a lot. Muscle memory. The further you progress in the book the less you have to write, nowadays I write each kanji maybe once or twice when learning, and don't write them when doing reviews. I am at frame number 1440.
Go for RTK. The whole thing, even if you will only type later. It's well worth the effort and it will change your life, I guarantee it. It has changed mine. Before RTK I've been struggling with Kanji for a long time. I just kept forgetting them. And - learning vocabulary is so much easier after RTK 1.
Good luck and enjoy the ride - it's fun!
Is RTK right for me? - EratiK - 2010-10-13
Not writing them during reviews is actually bad, you know? (says Heisig)(and I kind of agree).
Is RTK right for me? - chamcham - 2010-10-13
If you can't write down a kanji, how can you even say that you know it?
Being able to write down a kanji proves that you're able to distinguish it
from the other kanji that look like it.
You don't have to worry about handwriting letters to people so much.
But just use writing as a way to confirm that you really know the kanji.
Is RTK right for me? - harhol - 2010-10-13
The gap between first starting out with Japanese and being able to dive into native material is large and always will be. RTK isn't a magic wand.
Its purpose is to close that gap by giving you several different ways to distinguish between similar kanji, which is incredibly useful when learning compounds.
各名
右石
開関
僕撲
未末
学字
Can you distinguish between these (extremely basic) kanji at a glance and, crucially, can you remember that distinction when you encounter them separately in a variety of different words and fonts, while also remembering their different readings and meanings, and how those meanings and readings change with context?
Can you then do that for the dozens of other kanji which also look alike, are easily confused and are significantly more complex than the above?
In other words, do you want a really bad headache or just a bad one?
RTK isn't necessary to learning Japanese, of course, but depending on how your mind works in can double or triple the rate at which you're able pick up the language.
Is RTK right for me? - phantombk201 - 2010-10-13
I second everything said here.i have finished RTK 1 about 10 days ago and started learning vocab on smart.fm,and im also reading a reference book called にほんごできます...it has been pretty easy so far and its really fun to be able to make sense out of compound kanji(japanese verbs are still a b*** though),so i would definately recommend doing RTK.
Is RTK right for me? - A_Broken_Pencil - 2010-10-13
harhol Wrote:未末Um, is there actually a difference between those two? All the others I could discern, but not these.
Also, RTK won't help you read Japanese, but it'll at least help you read a good number of the Kanji that make Japanese. Then, all you have to do is learn the actual words.
Is RTK right for me? - chair - 2010-10-13
A_Broken_Pencil Wrote:The relative lengths of the two parallel lines are different.harhol Wrote:未末Um, is there actually a difference between those two? All the others I could discern, but not these.
Is RTK right for me? - zachandhobbes - 2010-10-13
Yeah, one is "not yet" and one is "extremity" or whatever that keyword is. Basically they're almost like opposites...
Is RTK right for me? - mezbup - 2010-10-13
If all you want to do is learn to read RTK is unnecessary. Just start a vocab deck, get rikaichan and away you go. The more you learn to read, the easier it gets to distinguish similar kanji because you'll recognize them by their readings.
There's about 700 I didn't study from RTK that I know how to read no problems cos I've just come across them in the wild and added the vocab to my vocab deck. Hence I know that you do not need RTK for just learning to read.
One thing RTK will help you tremendously with is being able to look things up thanks to knowing stroke order. So that's one reason I'd at least recommend doing RTK lite or a couple of hundred basic kanji to get a feel for stroke order. If you're only gonna look stuff up with rikaichan then you don't even need to know that. If you want to use a denshijisho or the Nintendo DS dictionary to write stuff in and look it up you'll need a bit of stroke order knowledge. I think that's where RTK helped me out most.
However, it's totally up to you. If you skip it and just learn to read, there's nothing wrong with that and you're understanding of Japanese will start growing rapidly. If you take the time to go through RTK it'll provide you with the benefits of knowing how to write kanji / stroke order (which I think stroke order is important to know at least) and it gives you a sense of familiarity with kanji. It's like kanji becomes you're friend after you've done RTK. Though having said that, it's also like it becomes you're friend after you know how to read it when you see it in isolation too.
Take your pick.
Is RTK right for me? - Sebastian - 2010-10-13
Steffan Wrote:Hello there!What a coincidence, I just happened to read this article from Lifehacker:
I have a question about RTK1.
Let's say I don't really care much for writing kanji, but that I just need to be able to read and recognize them.
Because let's face it, handwriting is disappearing nowadays and typing Japanese on a computer is extremely easy. Especially in Japan, virtually everyone uses smartphones and iPads and whatnot to type messages, handwriting is a thing of the past.
Handwriting Practice Could Improve Your Cognitive Abilities
Quote:The idea is that the actual act of writing out the letter takes a little more work in your brain than just typing the letters on a keyboard, and that extra work keeps your mind sharp.
Quote:Adults studying new symbols, such as Chinese characters, might enhance recognition by writing the characters by hand, researchers say.
Quote:Studies suggest there's real value in learning and maintaining this ancient skill, even as we increasingly communicate electronically via keyboards big and small.Here is the original article linked in Lifehacker, from The Wall Street Journal.
Quote:Dr. James says. For instance, in a 2008 study in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, adults were asked to distinguish between new characters and a mirror image of them after producing the characters using pen-and-paper writing and a computer keyboard. The result: For those writing by hand, there was stronger and longer-lasting recognition of the characters' proper orientation, suggesting that the specific movements memorized when learning how to write aided the visual identification of graphic shapes.
Quote:She says pictures of the brain have illustrated that sequential finger movements activated massive regions involved in thinking, language and working memory—the system for temporarily storing and managing information.
And one recent study of hers demonstrated that in grades two, four and six, children wrote more words, faster, and expressed more ideas when writing essays by hand versus with a keyboard.
Is RTK right for me? - Anna B - 2010-10-14
Wow, great links, Sebastian.
Writing definitely helps me remember things, kanji included. It's so ingrained in me that if I'm studying without pen and paper handy (like odd moments with my itouch) I'll often find myself tracing the kanji with my finger without being really aware of it.
Is RTK right for me? - Tori-kun - 2010-10-14
A huge point in the system of heisig is, that you have to believe that it works. If you say "nah, it's so uncommon and strange" you will mostly fail. Be open and liberal for some new method that - see the "I mastered RTK1" thread - obviously works. So called it's something you must tell yourself it works (psychological aspect of learning). It just does and don't question it
Coming to the Pen and Paper method: i'm at frame 1700 today and so far i wrote more than 80 pages of white blanco paper fully, there is no white space on them, everything is greyish (mechanical pencil/ball pointer pen, which i recommend for writing kanjis! get one, you will feel the difference and see it) and i suppose even more are going to come when i continue these days, approaching the end. When i review with KanjiGymLight i write down the kanji being asked first and check afterwards whether i was right or not (that means i kept it in mind or not) - try this method when you are into heisig and don't believe in pen and paper method to work, it does.
Good luck,
T.
Is RTK right for me? - kame3 - 2010-10-14
Steffan Wrote:Do you recommend RTK if one only wants to be able to read and understand kanji?With all due respect to (some of) the people above, you do NOT need to write the kanji. I did RTK without writing a single kanji down, because I think it is simply not worth it. So I used RTK only to be able to read and understand Kanji and I would recommend it wholeheartedly. The thing is that it helps you sort of get used to the kanji. When you would start learning kanji out of nowhere, you have to remember 2 things: meaning and reading. With RTK you got (part of) the meaning part covered, so once you finish RTK you can focus solely on the reading. Furthermore you got a nice tool to figure out kanjis you see in the wild. To counter mezbup's point: it is this tool that you used to learn those extra 700 kanji. Once you know how to learn new kanji's, RTK might seem superfluous. But you forget that RTK gave you the tool to learn the new kanji in the first place, which is why I think RTK is still neccessary.
When you think about it, RTK is just a way to dissect and categorize the kanji in a logical manner and optimize your memorization by using mnemonics and visualisation.
The path to follow imho: RTK to learn the meanings -> Core 6000 (or KO2001) to learn the readings. Probably you should learn some grammar along the way aswell.
(Just to make things clear, I'm not opposed to writing kanji (for instance if you need it or if it helps you learn the meaning), but I myself don't consider it a neccessary component of RTK)
Is RTK right for me? - Jarvik7 - 2010-10-14
Of course you don't NEED to write kanji. You also don't need to learn how to read them or learn Japanese at all. It entirely depends on your goals.
If you want to know how to write kanji or read handwritten kanji (knowing the stroking helps immensely when reading cursive), then you should do writing. If you don't want to be able to write, save yourself the time.
Is RTK right for me? - yudantaiteki - 2010-10-14
harhol Wrote:各名Of course, telling apart similar kanji like that is much easier in context than it is looking at them right together like that.
右石
開関
僕撲
未末
学字
Can you distinguish between these (extremely basic) kanji at a glance and, crucially, can you remember that distinction when you encounter them separately in a variety of different words and fonts, while also remembering their different readings and meanings, and how those meanings and readings change with context?
Is RTK right for me? - pm215 - 2010-10-14
kame3 Wrote:The thing I always wonder when I see this sort of suggestion is whether doing all of RTK is really the most efficient way of getting to that point. I'm sure it works, but it seems like a bit of a sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut if you're not going to worry about writing.Steffan Wrote:Do you recommend RTK if one only wants to be able to read and understand kanji?With all due respect to (some of) the people above, you do NOT need to write the kanji. I did RTK without writing a single kanji down, because I think it is simply not worth it. So I used RTK only to be able to read and understand Kanji and I would recommend it wholeheartedly. The thing is that it helps you sort of get used to the kanji.
Is RTK right for me? - nest0r - 2010-10-14
You should definitely use handwriting for the muscle memory aspects, even if it's only your finger or a mental tracing of the strokes, but I think handwriting is better because it incorporates more fine motorons. What are motorons? That's a word I just made up to describe some vague collection of sensory motor neuron pathway tendon muscle things.
But yeah, Sebastian covered it with that article, which I wish had been written before I posted a bazillion links and repeated the same lengthy explanation of why muscle memory is good for kanji. If you're interested, do a forum search, but it's not working well so: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=81142#pid81142 and http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=96254#pid96254
You could not use handwriting, you could also study blindfolded or half asleep. Not sure why you'd want to. I don't believe that studying RTK without writing it down will give you as good a command of the kanji, recognition or otherwise.
People make all sorts of claims on forums about their special techniques where they didn't have to do what others did--I think dizmox has a thread related to that, but since it's so rare and purely web-anecdotal, I generally assume they're delusional at best. I have no way of knowing if claims about knowledge quantity or quality are true, so just go by logic, research papers, and personal experience. So far, when it comes to learning techniques, I consider those 3 things to be the best for always learning how to learn better and exploring new techniques.
Others less cynical than myself might suggest something more positive, so um, nothing personal. ;p
Is RTK right for me? - kapalama - 2010-10-14
It's also worth pointing out that even if you write the Kanji for RTK's sake, it's not like you will be writing them correctly.
You need to have a native Japanese person there pointing out what you are doing wrong if you want to write them correctly.
The 'writing the characters part' is just there to learn to read them. You learn handwriting by actually writing Japanese, not by writing characters.
Is RTK right for me? - nest0r - 2010-10-14
kapalama Wrote:It's also worth pointing out that even if you write the Kanji for RTK's sake, it's not like you will be writing them correctly.You will be writing them correctly, and you do not need a native Japanese person there to correct you.
You need to have a native Japanese person there pointing out what you are doing wrong if you want to write them correctly.
The 'writing the characters part' is just there to learn to read them. You learn handwriting by actually writing Japanese, not by writing characters.
You learn handwriting characters by writing characters by hand. You learn handwriting Japanese by writing Japanese by hand. Recognition benefits in both cases. I agree with this version of your last two sentences. ;p
Is RTK right for me? - harhol - 2010-10-14
yudantaiteki Wrote:For a beginner there is no context. Surely that's the point here. In order to get to the 'telling them apart by context' stage you need to have already learned the words. Put yourself in the shoes of an absolute beginner, of someone who knows zero vocabulary, zero grammar, zero primitives, etc. A beginner isn't familiar with sentence structure, idioms, expressions or linguistic patterns. They have one seemingly random shape which means one thing and another seemingly random shape which means something entirely different. That's it. Three seconds after looking at a new kanji they've probably completely forgotten what it looks like. This is why so many people spend years drilling kanji.harhol Wrote:各名Of course, telling apart similar kanji like that is much easier in context than it is looking at them right together like that.
右石
開関
僕撲
未末
学字
Can you distinguish between these (extremely basic) kanji at a glance and, crucially, can you remember that distinction when you encounter them separately in a variety of different words and fonts, while also remembering their different readings and meanings, and how those meanings and readings change with context?
Also I agree with nest0r's point about claims on forums and the internet in general. You see a lot of people do something like Heisig and then claim afterwards that it didn't work or wasn't particularly useful (mezbup: "If all you want to do is learn to read [...] just start a vocab deck, get rikaichan and away you go."). Post-RTK it's difficult to appreciate just how nightmarish kanji are to a complete beginner. Surely I can't be the only person who always wanted to learn Japanese but only started doing so after discovering RTK?
Is RTK right for me? - nest0r - 2010-10-14
By the way, here's the full paper referenced in that article: Learning through Hand- or Typewriting Influences Visual Recognition of New Graphic Shapes: Behavioral and Functional Imaging Evidence (.pdf)
Really wish I knew about that paper before, would've saved me some time. That name Longcamp seems familiar though, maybe I've read other work by them.
Abstract: Fast and accurate visual recognition of single characters is crucial for efficient reading. We explored the possible contribution of writing memory to character recognition processes. We evaluated the ability of adults to discriminate new characters from their mirror images after being taught how to produce the characters either by traditional pen-and-paper writing or with a computer keyboard. After training, we found stronger and longer lasting (several weeks) facilitation in recognizing the orientation of characters that had been written by hand compared to those typed. Functional magnetic resonance imaging recordings indicated that the response mode during learning is associated with distinct pathways during recognition of graphic shapes. Greater activity related to handwriting learning and normal letter identification was observed in several brain regions known to be involved in the execution, imagery, and observation of actions, in particular, the left Broca's area and bilateral inferior parietal lobules. Taken together, these results provide strong arguments in favor of the view that the specific movements memorized when learning how to write participate in the visual recognition of graphic shapes and letters.
Is RTK right for me? - yudantaiteki - 2010-10-14
harhol Wrote:For a beginner there is no context. Surely that's the point here. In order to get to the 'telling them apart by context' stage you need to have already learned the words. Put yourself in the shoes of an absolute beginner, of someone who knows zero vocabulary, zero grammar, zero primitives, etc.I can easily put myself in those shoes because I was there at one time, and I confront a hundred students a year who are in those shoes.
Quote:A beginner isn't familiar with sentence structure, idioms, expressions or linguistic patterns. They have one seemingly random shape which means one thing and another seemingly random shape which means something entirely different. That's it. Three seconds after looking at a new kanji they've probably completely forgotten what it looks like. This is why so many people spend years drilling kanji.There are other ways besides RTK to become familiar. Another possibility is to defer learning kanji until you have a foothold in the grammar, vocab, etc., which is what I did (and what other people do as well).