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Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - magamo - 2010-11-24
yudantaiteki Wrote:Although the negative can have a more positive meaning, right? Something like 今日は、あなたにしては間違いが多かった.あなたにしては間違いが多かった can have various implications from "You could do better than that" with a little negative tone to a more neutral "What happened to you? It's not like you" to a slightly positive "I'm not saying you made many mistakes. If you were just a run-of-the-mill player, I'd say it was very good." But this is hardly a praise. With a positive tone of voice, the speaker may be making fun of あなた in a friendly way or mean "You didn't do well today, but I know you can do better and believe in your talent." But that's the most positive take I can think of off the top of my head.
あなたにしては (clause about bad thing) like this is about the negative thing because that's the main point of the sentence. And あなたにしては followed by a clause about a positive thing will make the listener want to say, "What are you getting at?" "What do you mean by 'あなたにしては'?" etc. (This also has to do with the fact that the speaker singled the listener out though.)
If Xにしては is followed by a fact which is unusual for X but neither positive or negative, the sentence can be neutral, e.g., 彼の絵にしては青色が少ない気がする (implying that the artist usually uses more blue colors in his works than other artists). But whatever follows, it always implies the speaker has a general image or stereotype about X. So X can't be neutral to the following clause because Xにしては means something contradicts the assumption about X.
What's more complicated is that a pretty common sentence in Japanese can be conveying an idea which would sound sexist, racist or discriminatory in another culture and visa versa. What counts as discrimination etc. depends heavily on politics, religion, history, and culture. So it can be very tricky to argue what the Japanese equivalent of "She's strong for a girl" is.
yudantaiteki Wrote:I hate having to teach にしては、にしても、としては、としても, partly because I still feel like I don't fully understand it.I feel for you. No one understands them to the extent that they can give clear explanations. Native speakers can't either.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
I don't really understand why I can't use ものだ in the following question:
いつも約束の時間を守る林さんがこんあに遅いとは。途中で何かあった＿＿＿＿。
The correct answer is に違いない, and the reason I didn't pick it was because I thought it sounded too certain (however I guess this is not the case). I selected ものだ, because of its usage to describe emotion. So the speaker is worried about 林さん and uses this expression to show his concern.
Why is this usage incorrect?
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Thora - 2010-11-24
In terms of ものだ and emotion, perhaps DoBJ might help: "Note, however, that emotion expressed here is not an instantaneously appearing emotion instigated by a current event but an emotion nurtured in one's mind for a relatively long period of time." It also mentions that you can use の（だ） in places you wouldn't use もの（だ） because の（だ） is more directly emotive and geared to the current moment.
I think of the 違いない version as a bit like "something must've happened, 'cause it's not like him." So it's not like absolute certainty.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - rich_f - 2010-11-25
にでもなった
Seriously. What the hell? I've never heard this phrase before, and I can't find it anywhere, and it shows up in a (supposedly) level 2 book?
Am I going crazy, or is the author of the book I'm using just not very good at figuring out what the hell 2級 level grammar is supposed to be? (This is that 45日間 book. Meh. Seemed good at first, now I'm not so thrilled about it, because crap like this keeps popping up.)
Here's the sentence, FWIW:
とても忙しくて、大統領にでもなった{a.かのようだ b.べきではない}。
EDIT: Okay, on second thought, I kind of get it now that I realize that I transposed the wrong a/b answers into the question.... but still. What on earth does that phrase mean?!?
The right answer is a. かのようだ (I got it right), but it was an educated guess.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - pm215 - 2010-11-25
rich_f Wrote:にでもなったThis is just でも meaning "even" applied to Xになった "became X". This usage of でも is in the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar; not sure where it is in JLPT terms. でも replaces the particle if it's を or が: 先生でもまちがいます, but is added for others: ここからでも富士山が見えます "even from here you can see Mt. Fuji".
Seriously. What the hell? I've never heard this phrase before, and I can't find it anywhere, and it shows up in a (supposedly) level 2 book?
とても忙しくて、大統領にでもなった{a.かのようだ b.べきではない}。
("even" doesn't work as a direct translation here, obviously.)
Also the DIJG says that tense in "verb+べき" is marked by inflecting the べき bit, ie なるべきではなかった not *なったべきではない, so the second answer would be odd grammatically.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - stevesayskanpai - 2010-11-28
Hi all.
Just wanted to say thanks for all your help over the past 2-3 months in patiently answering my many grammar related questions. Thanks especially to pm215 - you're answers have always been spot on dude, and have cleared up a lot of my own personal misunderstandings.
3 weeks ago I started a new job, so my revision time has declined substantially. Now I'm trying to make it back up - one week to go!
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - rich_f - 2010-11-28
Ah, yeah, I forgot to thank pm215 as well for that last grammar point. Sorry about that.
Congrats on the new job, Steve. One week to go indeed. Time to get busy!
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-03
Here is a collection of problems/points I didn't get in section 第一部.
(I haven't taken the tests today but I have the whole day dedicated to it.)
1) 日本に来て、富士山をはじめ、（ ）。
Correct response: 主な山にはだいたい登った。
My response: 見て美しいと思った。
I was thinking something on the lines of, "After coming to Japan, starting with Mt. Fuji, what I saw was beautiful.". But it seems that because there is a "はじめ" there has to be more mountains that he/she climbed. Is it an "Apples and Oranges" kind of thing where you have to compare similar subjects?
2) ”〜に相当する分だけ” にかわりに
わたしが料理するかわりに、あなたは掃除してください。
Instead of me cooking, please clean. (?)
I'll cook if you please clean. (?)
Could you please explain this point. It isn't on Jgram -- well this usage anyways.
3) 桜の花が散ら（ ）花見に行こう。
Correct response: ないうちに
My response: ないばかりに
I was thinking, "Let's not just go see flower viewing when the petals are falling [but also when they aren't.]" Their response makes sense but I wasn't too sure between these two.
4) 試験の（ ）大きな地震があってびっくりした。
Correct response: 最中に
My response: うちに
I was thinking that since a test takes an hour or so you couldn't use 最中 which is more like for spontaneous reactions. But I look back and see it's more of exactly in the middle. (Doh!) But why is "うちに" wrong? Is it more of a hypothetical expression?
5) 予定の時間になったので、出かけようとしたところへ（ ）。
Correct response: 友達が訪ねて来た。
My response: 友達も出かけようとした。
I mixed it with the other expression: "にする". Would the general translation be, "Because I had an opening in my schedule, when I tried to leave my friends also asked and left."
6) 1日で1000字もの漢字が覚えられる（ ）。
Correct response: わけがある
My response: わけがない
I thought it would be, "There is no way you can learn 1000 kanji in on day.".
Last One) このカーテンは（ ）生地を使っています。
Correct response: 燃えにくい
My response: 燃えがたい
What's the difference between these expressions?
Thank you SO much! This community rocks and has really helped me.
よろしくお願いします！
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - ghinzdra - 2010-12-03
gyuujuice Wrote:1) 日本に来て、富士山をはじめ、（ ）。Exactly ,The object of をはじめ is just to point out the vanguard , the leader . There is not much to ponder about this . After をはじめ there must be an indication of the class it belongs to .
Correct response: 主な山にはだいたい登った。
My response: 見て美しいと思った。
Since coming to japan , starting with the Fuji mount , I climbed all the main mountain
gyuujuice Wrote:2) ”〜に相当する分だけ” にかわりにit's not instead , it s in exchange .
わたしが料理するかわりに、あなたは掃除してください。
There are 2 meanings to かわりに
a proper traduction would be : I ll do the cooking , so (in exchange) please clean
gyuujuice Wrote:3) 桜の花が散ら（ ）花見に行こう。In a time context ばかり is about something that just happened . Let's go see the flower that just didn't fall ? it just doesn't make any sense .
Correct response: ないうちに
My response: ないばかりに
in the other hand ないうちに is a well known japanese form , most of the time it's about having to do something before a window closes , it expresses an opportunity .
Let's go see the flowers while they aren't scattered
gyuujuice Wrote:4) 試験の（ ）大きな地震があってびっくりした。it 's all about nuance . うちに would just mean during the test/inside the test . I guess it could work , I just feel it instinctively a bit awkward .
Correct response: 最中に
My response: うちに
最中 is really specific and just fits better : right in the middle of the test . It all about the idea he was surprised remember , so the idea is the earthquake broke his concentration when he was really focused, right in the middle of the test .
gyuujuice Wrote:5) 予定の時間になったので、出かけようとしたところへ（ ）。ところ in this context is about a specific moment . "Just when"
Correct response: 友達が訪ねて来た。
My response: 友達も出かけようとした。
your response would mean something along the line of : "As it was time to go, I was about to leave when my friends were also preparing to leave." Barely makes sense .
In the other hand a proper translation of the correct answer would be : As it was time to go, I was about to leave when my friends visited me .
gyuujuice Wrote:6) 1日で1000字もの漢字が覚えられる（ ）。I must concur with you on this . I am a bit surprised here . You're really SURE it 's わけがある？？？？？？
Correct response: わけがある
My response: わけがない
all the more surprise that there's the emphatic も which stresses the enormous amount of kanji to learn a single day .Everything leads me to say even without thinking わけがない。 Can't really help you on this one sorry .
gyuujuice Wrote:Last One) このカーテンは（ ）生地を使っています。Not really confident on this one . What seems to work in general is that にくい is an intrinsec level of difficulty of an action while がたい is more about a psychological state,a personal feeling .
Correct response: 燃えにくい
My response: 燃えがたい
let's take 彼の話は理解し（づらい／ にくい／がたい)
the first one would mean : he's hard to understand (painful, not enjoyable . It's no fun )
the secund : he's hard to understand (difficulty . It's hard to make sense of what he says )
the third one : (I try to but )I feel him hard to understand
Personal analysis but I sense がたい is truely a japanese expression . Japanese language and culture seems to have a strong feeling of impossibility, a tension betwen what we wish and what we can do .
EDIT : 3 perfect exemple
「－つらい／－にくい／－がたい」の違い
①「許し（Ｘ づらい／Ｘ にくい／Ｏ がたい）事件」
「がたい」は「難い（がたい）」：すること／あることがとても難しいこと、絶対にできないこと。
「許すことが絶対にできない事件」という意味
②「左手では食べ（Ｘ づらい／ Ｏ に くい／Ｘ がたい）。」
「にくい」は「憎い（にくい）」：とても嫌いなこと
そこから、難しくて嫌だと思うことに使われる。 「左手で食べることは難しい、嫌だ」と思う気持ち
③「足をケガしているので歩き（Ｏ づらい／△ にくい／Ｘ がたい）。」
「つらい」は「辛い（つらい）」：心身に苦痛を感じる、苦しい
そこから、気持ち的に苦痛を感じる状態を表す。
「足をケガしている」＝痛い、苦痛があるので 「歩きづらい」
もしあまり痛くないケガ（例えば骨折の痛みはもうないが、まだギプスをしているなど）の場合は、「歩きにくい」も言うことができる。
また、「この道は舗装されていないので、歩きにくい。」と言うこともできる。
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-03
You have been a great help. I now understand all my mistakes and the points you made were very clear. It was "わけがない". There was a similar question and I switched the grades. XD Sorry about that. Anyways, I got a 79 on the first section and you deserve a jar of macadamia nut cookies.
Edit] Those additional examples are also great! Thanks!
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Asriel - 2010-12-03
As for #5, excellent explanation:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=94570#pid94570
It definitely helped me recognize the differences between 〜がたい 〜づらい 〜にくい
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - captal - 2010-12-03
Asriel Wrote:As for #5, excellent explanation:Magamo is amazing- I hope I can one day write/speak in Japanese that well, but it'll be a while
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=94570#pid94570
It definitely helped me recognize the differences between 〜がたい 〜づらい 〜にくい
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-03
Great, thanks!
I have only one question for 第II部:
フルーツの王様（ ）何といってもドリアンでしょう。
O 1) といえば The correct answer
2) というより My answer
X 3) と思うと chain of actions/multiple actions with almost no transition
4) から見れば
I knew it couldn't be number 3 but got confused on the general idea of the sentence.
(Who the heck eats durian fruit anyways?
)よろしくお願いします！
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - ghinzdra - 2010-12-03
gyuujuice Wrote:Great, thanks!when it comes to fruits the unchallenged king is the durian ./when you speak about the king of fruit , whatever you may say it 's the durian .
I have only one question for 第II部:
フルーツの王様（ ）何といってもドリアンでしょう。
O 1) といえば The correct answer
2) というより My answer
X 3) と思うと chain of actions/multiple actions with almost no transition
4) から見れば
I knew it couldn't be number 3 but got confused on the general idea of the sentence.
(Who the heck eats durian fruit anyways?
よろしくお願いします！
といえば if you speak about (というと is even stronger)
というより rather than X , it s more Y : your answer would be translated : rather than the king of fruit , whatever you may say it's the durian. Guess you could make it work with a proper context but it would be too much of a stretch . The expected answer would be といえば especially considering the でしょう。 というと/といえば has a meaning of a generally accepted truth , what is the best , what is the prime example of something .
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Asriel - 2010-12-03
N1 といえば N2
is a structure that basically says that N2 is the prime example of N1.
夏といえば、花火大会だね
Kinda says how like, the fireworks are the best part of summer, or they are the 'defining moment' that makes summer what it is.
So, in terms of the King of Fruit, whatever you say, the Durian is probably the best candidate (for being the king of fruit)....kind of thing
X というより is like "rather than X, it's more Y"
寒いというより、涼しい
"It's not so much 'cold,' but cool"
If you have trouble remembering it, it's kind of like
X1と言うより、X2と言った方がいい
"Saying X2 is better than saying X1" Except you dont need anything after 'X2'
edit: i think its hilarious that ghinzdra and I both used the phrase "prime example"
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-03
Thanks guys! Your comments both make sense. There are so many expressions that look alike it can be hard for me to remember which one is which. XD But I got it now.
皆様、教えてくれてありがとうございました！
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - ghinzdra - 2010-12-03
gyuujuice Wrote:Thanks guys! Your comments both make sense. There are so many expressions that look alike it can be hard for me to remember which one is which. XD But I got it now.I kind of remember when I was struggling with the differents use of わけ ....difference between からして ,から見ると , と思うと,と思いきや , と言うと .... Or つい,ついに,ついでに
皆様、教えてくれてありがとうございました！
honestly the feeling of confusion wears off after a while. It's just a matter of time and exposition to the language .The reason of your confusion is because you have to see them in concentrated, unnatural context .That's the drawback of cramming for an exam . When you hear an expression in a drama , read in a novel etc. it has a strong individual identity , so it leaves a stronger impression , you have a better grasp of the context and you are much more confident about its use.
When I find one of those , I mark the card with a @GRAM . As a result in my anki database now , If I have a doubt I have a real japanese example for most of those expressions . (the one I don't have an example for are all the more singled out as JLPT useless stuff )
to give a few examples
と思いきや クソ真面目な優等生かと思いきや、不倫とはな in the drama maou 07
ったらない あの痛さだったらないからもんどりうつよ。 in the anime gintama 43
といい といい このセリフといいこの登録名といい子供じゃないかと思うけど in hikaru no go vol 4
やら カメラやら小道具やらで嵩張るバッグ in haruhi light novel 02
べからず ツイッター、侮るべからずである。 in an issue of diamond business magazine about twitter
Nothing new under the sun I'm afraid . Exposition is the key .
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Thora - 2010-12-03
Just to add a couple thoughts:
gyuujuice Wrote:4)...With N うちに, N has to be a time noun such as winter, morning etc. It cannot be an event such as exam, test. (from DofBG)
Quote:2) わたしが料理するかわりに、あなたは掃除してください。Were you wondered if it's possible for this sentence to have two different interpretations: 「かわりに」 as "instead of" and "in exchange for"? hmm. I read it as "in exchange". But I guess I can see the possibility of "instead of me doing anything, you do something". On the tests, I imagine it's enough to just to go with the more straightforward meanings.
Quote:3) 桜の花が散ら（ ）花見に行こう。As for why ばかり doesn't work here, think about the various uses of ばかり and whether they'd fit in terms of meaning and grammar. Note that the ばかり meaning "just happened" is with Vpast. With Vpresent it can mean "does nothing but" or "nothing to do but"/"ready to", but I don't think I've seen it with a negative verb. That is, "the blossoms do nothing but not fall" isn't a way to convey "they're in bloom". Even if it were, the sentence still wouldn't work. You'd need something to say "while they're in bloom, lets'..."
ばかりに in the "simply because" sense can follow a negative verb. Whether the verb is positive or negative, however the ensuing result is usually something negative, so it doesn't fit in this sentence.
[edit: deleted 1]
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-04
”honestly the feeling of confusion wears off after a while. It's just a matter of time and exposition to the language .The reason of your confusion is because you have to see them in concentrated, unnatural context .That's the drawback of cramming for an exam . When you hear an expression in a drama , read in a novel etc. it has a strong individual identity , so it leaves a stronger impression , you have a better grasp of the context and you are much more confident about its use.”
Hopefully after the test I can start going back to studying in context. Thanks for the advice.
Thora, Thank you for your comment!
"With N うちに, N has to be a time noun such as winter, morning etc. It cannot be an event such as exam, test. (from DofBG)"
That makes a lot of sense now!
ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
I finished the Kanzen book and now I have a few questions before I finally stop bugging you guys! -- もう一御願いします！
残念（ ）もう受付は締め切りました。
◯ながら
×ものの
(What's the difference between "ながら" and "ものの"?)
お出かけの（ ）かぎをしめるのを忘れずに。
◯際は
×（うえ）上は
(Someone, I think a teacher, once told me that "際" is used on for special occasions not something that you do everyday like "when I eat".)
新婚旅行にいく（ ）、ギリシャへ行きたいとなあ。
◯としたら
×ものなら
(To me these expressions are synonymous -- I know I'm wrong but I can't see a difference.)
コンピューターの知識にかけては（ ）。
◯彼は自信があるらしい
×彼は頼りにしている。
("As far as his computer knowledge goes...." I don't see any reason why it should be either one really I just guessed. Both of them sound fine to me. "As far as his computer knowledge goes, he seems pretty confident." "As far as his computer knowledge goes, he is asking for help." ?)
この間かったカメラは安い（ ）、すぐ壊れてしまった。
◯だけあって
×からには
(I know that the one I put in is wrong but I don't understand the grammar point だけあって／だけに／だけ very well. I know できるだけ／ほしいだけ but I don't get the two other meaning it has. I would greatly appreciate it if you could explain or just copy and paste a explanation!)
先輩、どうぞよろしくお願いします！
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-04
(shameless bump)
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - rich_f - 2010-12-04
In this one:
6) 1日で1000字もの漢字が覚えられる（ ）。
My version of KM2 shows わけがない as the correct answer. Maybe you have an older version?
残念ながら is a canned phrase. 残念ものの is not. You see 残念ながら a lot in correspondence with just about any business that doesn't have what you want in stock, or can't ship it to your country, or has to delay your order, etc.
残念ながら, we have to punch you in the stomach.
ものの equates to although, in the sense of, 運転免許を取ったものの、車がない。 (although he got his driver's license, he doesn't have a car.) The main diff with ものの is the second clause is *unexpected.*
ながら used as 'while' is a bit different, though the meaning is the same. (It's closer to けれども) It's used mostly in written and formal spoken Japanese.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-05
Thank you that really helps!
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - pm215 - 2010-12-05
gyuujuice Wrote:残念（ ）もう受付は締め切りました。As well as 残念ながら being a stock phrase, ものの doesn't work here because you can't just attach a bare noun/Na-adj to it. It's adj-na + { な | で(は)ある | だった | であった } + ものの.
◯ながら
×ものの
Quote:コンピューターの知識にかけては（ ）。We covered this question way back near the beginning of this thread...
Quote:この間かったカメラは安い（ ）、すぐ壊れてしまった。You might try this comment by magamo from a だけ thread from the beginning of the year. The short answer is that XだけあってY is roughly "as you would expect of X, Y".
◯だけあって
×からには
(I know that the one I put in is wrong but I don't understand the grammar point だけあって／だけに／だけ very well. I know できるだけ／ほしいだけ but I don't get the two other meaning it has. I would greatly appreciate it if you could explain or just copy and paste a explanation!)
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - ghinzdra - 2010-12-05
gyuujuice Wrote:”as in most cases , it's hard to explain precisely a linguistic concept . So yes your teacher explanation can be used as a guideline but , considering you have several other words for what could be called special occasions , like を切っ掛け を機に を機会に among others , it's still far from satisfactory . Bottomline you'll learn 際 by reading so many examples in context that you'll just feel it's a 際 occasion .
お出かけの（ ）かぎをしめるのを忘れずに。
◯際は
×（うえ）上は
(Someone, I think a teacher, once told me that "際" is used on for special occasions not something that you do everyday like "when I eat".)
上は is compeletely irrelevant . It has several meanings , the time meaning (after doing something ) still doesn't make sense .
gyuujuice Wrote:”I would rather translate the 2nd sentence by "he's reliable. "
コンピューターの知識にかけては（ ）。
◯彼は自信があるらしい
×彼は頼りにしている。
("As far as his computer knowledge goes...." I don't see any reason why it should be either one really I just guessed. Both of them sound fine to me. "As far as his computer knowledge goes, he seems pretty confident." "As far as his computer knowledge goes, he is asking for help." ?)
にかけて hints at a competence , a of skill with some pride mixed . I would say this pride component is more obvious in the first case.
.....................
.....................
.....................
Piss poor explanation ... d'better ask someoneself
gyuujuice Wrote:”だけあって/だけに express a correlation . One of the closest traduction would be "as expected of " I guess but when I must translate the sentence it happens frequently that I use another structure .
この間かったカメラは安い（ ）、すぐ壊れてしまった。
◯だけあって
×からには
an akward translation
the camera I bought recently broke instantly as expected for this price .
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - pm215 - 2010-12-05
ghinzdra Wrote:Aren't you getting mixed up with 頼りになる there? 彼は頼りになる == He is reliable. 彼はだれかを頼りにしている == He is relying on somebody. 彼は頼りにしているX == the X he is relying on.gyuujuice Wrote:”I would rather translate the 2nd sentence by "he's reliable. "
コンピューターの知識にかけては（ ）。
◯彼は自信があるらしい
×彼は頼りにしている。
("As far as his computer knowledge goes...." I don't see any reason why it should be either one really I just guessed. Both of them sound fine to me. "As far as his computer knowledge goes, he seems pretty confident." "As far as his computer knowledge goes, he is asking for help." ?)
(I'm not sure how natural 頼りにしている with a dropped を clause is anyway...)