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Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - julianjalapeno - 2010-11-17
あまり means "rarely" when it appears with ない, but otherwise it means the opposite, so here Kobayashi is very passionate about his experiments so he forgets to eat.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-11-17
Thank you but I'm still a bit perplexed.
("非常に〜ので" is the definition in the book for reference.)
"科学者である小林さんは実験に熱心なあまり、昼食をとるのを忘れることもしばしばある。"
"Because the scientist, Kobayashi, is always passionate about his lab experiments, he has started to forget his lunches." Is this it then? I don't see how this fits the definition.
How about we ue a simpler example sentence:
"驚きのあまり、声も出なかった。"
"Because I am rarely surprised, I didn't even make a sound."
I'm sorry to bug everyone about this but this isn't "clicking". I'll check Tae Kim and see if there is anything on it.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - julianjalapeno - 2010-11-17
Well the next example you used does have ない, but not with あまり, so it's still "I was so surprised, I couldn't speak."
Like the KM definitions says あまり here is something like "since (you're feeling something) very much..." which comes out in English as "so excited", "it was so hot", "i was so happy", "i was in such a hurry", etc.
Here it is used with ない where it means "not so much":
彼の容体はあまりよくない "His condition is not very good."
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Asriel - 2010-11-17
What helped me get past the "wtf is あまり doing???" stage was to look at it as 余る, which if you quickly rikaichan, you'll notice is "to remain; to be left over; to be in excess; to be too many." So then we can look at 余り as being "the remainder; extra; a lot of" kind of thing.
So if you have
あまり〜ない --> There is no excess, there is no remainder
彼の容体はあまりよくない --> There is no "excess goodness" in his condition
(all the "goodness" is used up, and so there's none left for his condition)
私はあまり学校に行かない --> I don't go to school "in excess." There is "no remainder" in of 'going to school' that I do.
Those translations are weird as anything, but the point is to connect the あまり and ない, and realize that the reason it means "rarely" and "not so much" is because it's essentially saying that 'there's not enough ~ to have extra/leftover'
Which makes sense if you look at it in the new light:
驚きのあまり、声も出なかった
"There was excess surprise, and my voice did not come out"
"Excess surprise," what? That's because there was so much surprise, that you could [figuratively] have left over --> the amount of 'surprise' being poured into the 'surprise cup' began to overflow.
I hope this makes sense to you, but I can totally understand if you just end up thinking I'm crazy. But this is how I remembered it.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - magamo - 2010-11-17
I think julianjalapeno's and Asriel's explanations make sense, and maybe that's etymologically correct way to explain the meanings of あまり in question. But as a native speaker, I use different pitch accents for different meanings of あまり and, in a sense, see them as different words. The two あまりs in 驚きのあまり and 容体はあまりよくない are not even homonyms in my mind because they're pronounced with different pitch patters, though I wouldn't be surprised if they're listed in the same entry in a dictionary.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - captal - 2010-11-17
I asked my girlfriend to say both of those sentences (容体はあまりよくない and 驚きのあまり、声も出なかった) to see if she'd pronounce the あまり differently. She did. They have noticeably different pitch accents.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-11-17
"I hope this makes sense to you, but I can totally understand if you just end up thinking I'm crazy. But this is how I remembered it."
No no, I do the same kind of things.
This is very helpful.So with this in mind I'm going to translate a few more sentences. I think I got it.
「子供の将来を思うあまり、厳しすぎることを言ってしまった。」
"Only thinking about (my) children's future, I said something too strict."
Here her thoughts are overflowing/excess.
「彼は働きすぎたあまり、過労で倒れてしまった。」
"Because he worked so much/excessively, he collapsed out of fatigue."
(I'm not sure if "fatigue" would be the exact translation but it sounds natural there.)
(Now my own.) 「日本語で話すあまり、英語の言葉を忘れてしまった。」
"Because I speak Japanese so much, I forgot the English word(s)."
皆さんのおかげでどんどんん習っています。本当にありがとうございました！
"She did. They have noticeably different pitch accents."
Interesting. I'll keep that in mind.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - rich_f - 2010-11-23
This isn't from KM2, but from a similar book. You can only pick one of the answers once.
1. 父は飛行機に乗るのが怖い 「くせに・にしては」、海外旅行をしてみたいなんて言っている。
2. 彼女はモデル 「くせに・にしては」 自分の服は気を使わない。
Naturally, I got these wrong, or else I wouldn't be asking about it here. I'm not quite grokking the difference between くせに and にしては in these two questions. From what I gathered, くせに is supposed to be critical... well, both sentences are critical, if you ask me. And にしては is supposed to be unexpected... and both are kind of unexpected, too. Grrrr. 細かいなぁ。
Oh, the right answers according to the book?
1. is くせに
2. is にしては
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-11-23
How is one being afraid of riding a plane, "critical"? Hm... I only got the first one though so I will just ignore it.
「しては」
”そのことから当然予想されることと違って”
(Lit.)"Because it's that, it's different from your natural prediction."
I like to visualise it as "Although you may think" as compared to くせに which is more "despite".
兄はアメリカに20年いたにしては英語が下手だ。
(NOT literal translation) 'Although you may think' that my brother would have good English because he lived in America, truth is his English sucks.
My explantation sucks but hopefully you can get something out of it.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - sikieiki - 2010-11-23
gyuujuice Wrote:How is one being afraid of riding a plane, "critical"? Hm... I only got the first one though so I will just ignore it.「にしては」 refers to some deviation from a well known or assumed fact, like it being warm in summer (and its not) or that i have studied japanese for 10 years (and still suck at it). In this case, one would assume a model would be careful about their appearance and surprised to know that is not the case.
「しては」
”そのことから当然予想されることと違って”
(Lit.)"Because it's that, it's different from your natural prediction."
I like to visualise it as "Although you may think" as compared to くせに which is more "despite".
兄はアメリカに20年いたにしては英語が下手だ。
(NOT literal translation) 'Although you may think' that my brother would have good English because he lived in America, truth is his English sucks.
My explantation sucks but hopefully you can get something out of it.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - pm215 - 2010-11-23
rich_f Wrote:This isn't from KM2, but from a similar book. You can only pick one of the answers once.You can answer this one just based on the grammatical forms without getting into differences of meaning. くせ works "like a noun" in the way the thing before it connects -- so 怖い is fine but モデル is not (it needs a の in between). (I think 2 would work with のくせに, in fact.)
1. 父は飛行機に乗るのが怖い 「くせに・にしては」、海外旅行をしてみたいなんて言っている。
2. 彼女はモデル 「くせに・にしては」 自分の服は気を使わない。
As for why 1 isn't にしては, I think this grammar point is a bit like "for an X" (eg 'for a model she doesn't take much care over her clothes'). So the X has to be what the next part of the sentence is about (it is in some sense marking a topic). So (I think) you could say 飛行機に乗るのが怖い人にしては、 海外旅行をしてみたいなんて言っている。 I kind of want to stick a よく in there too; not totally confident about that.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - pm215 - 2010-11-23
gyuujuice Wrote:「しては」...just noticed that your literal translation suggests maybe you've misinterpreted that explanatory phrase. That should be more like "different from what would naturally be expected/predicted from that thing/fact" -- it's そのこと + から "from + that thing/fact", not ことから "because", I think.
”そのことから当然予想されることと違って”
(Lit.)"Because it's that, it's different from your natural prediction."
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-11-23
I see what you are saying. Yes my literal translation should be "from that", though I think that an English equivilent would be somehting like "given that" or "Although you may think". Is there something wrong with these 'translations'? I think they suffice for my understanding.
-- I covered this stuff last week so it's not like I'm a high level. XD
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-23
I've got a question about this problem:
彼は新製品の開発に熱っシンなあまり、＿＿＿＿。
A）社長に大変ほめられた
B）課長から部長に昇進できた
C）部下に好かれた
D）何日も研究室に泊まることがある。
So, he works really hard at product development, why can't A & B be correct alternatives to the correct answer D? I mean they both result from really hard (and getting noticed by your superiors). What makes them unacceptable?
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Thora - 2010-11-23
あまり used in this way is typically connected to something negative. A and B are positive outcomes.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-23
Got it! Thanks
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - rich_f - 2010-11-23
Thanks for the help with にしては and くせに. I forgot the whole "for an X" application.
怖いくせ... does that kind of work the same way as "scaredy-cat" would work in English? I know it's not exactly the same thing, but the general concept.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Thora - 2010-11-23
gyuujuice Wrote:Yes my literal translation should be "from that", though I think that an English equivilent would be somehting like "given that" or "Although you may think". Is there something wrong with these 'translations'? I think they suffice for my understanding.It looks like you may have merged "ことから” (”from that”) from the explanatory sentence with the expression being explained： ”にしては”. :-)
Yes, I think that "given that", "considering that", "for" can be used to translate "にしては”. Your suggested "although you may think" is more of mental reminder that the rest of the sentence is contrary to expectation. I think that's what you meant, though; not that it would appear in a translation.
For an 80-year old, [although you might expect otherwise] she's active.
-> She's active for an 80-year old.
Also, I think the sense of unexpectedness can be more subtle:
（彼は）年にしては大きい He's big for his age.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - magamo - 2010-11-24
Thora Wrote:Also, I think the sense of unexpectedness can be more subtle:If you're studying finer points, there are a lot more to にしては and similar expressions. For example:
（彼は）年にしては大きい He's big for his age.
年の割には大きい -> ok.
あの年にしては大きい, この子の年にしては大きい, etc. -> ok.
年にしては大きい -> Hmm... Not the most idiomatic way... (Is "（彼は）年にしては大きい" an example sentence in a textbook?)
Also, 彼女はモデルにしては自分の服は気を使わない。is supposed to be the correct answer. But I think this also falls into the category of "Not the most idiomatic way" (unless you're intentionally shifting the focus in the middle of your sentence). This and 年にしては大きい are both grammatically correct in a sense though. Other native speakers may find them totally idiomatic. But personally I avoid such sentences.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-11-24
"It looks like you may have merged "ことから” (”from that”) from the explanatory sentence with the expression being explained： ”にしては”. :-)"
Yeah, you're probably right there.
"is more of mental reminder that the rest of the sentence is contrary to expectation"
Bingo, I think it works for me.
I'm having a hard time with these sentences. I get the gist (maybe) but I just can't find the right English expression. Essentially, it's like [instead of...advantage], right? You use it when there is a dissadvantage but also an advantage or something.
"に相当する分だけ"
わたしが料理するかわりに、あなたは掃除してください。
I'll do the cooking and you'll do the cleaning please.
この部屋は狭いかわりに、家賃が安い。
This room is narrow, but [to its benefit] it's cheap.
わたしのマンションは静かなかわりに、駅から遠くて不便だ。
My house is inconveniently far away from the station, but as an advantage it's quiet.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - rich_f - 2010-11-24
magamo Wrote:Also, 彼女はモデルにしては自分の服は気を使わない。is supposed to be the correct answer. But I think this also falls into the category of "Not the most idiomatic way" (unless you're intentionally shifting the focus in the middle of your sentence). This and 年にしては大きい are both grammatically correct in a sense though. Other native speakers may find them totally idiomatic. But personally I avoid such sentences.This is the joy of JLPT prep books. Someone has to write the sentences, I guess.
I find myself yelling at this book more and more (not KM2, another book), because I can't find the shades of meaning as easily as I thought I could before I started doing their exercises.
The whole idea of piling up a bunch of phrases that all mean roughly the same thing and then testing us to see if we can parse them sounds great in theory, but if the exercises are too hard, then when the rubber hits the road, the tire tread separates and the car winds up wrapped around a tree.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - Thora - 2010-11-24
magamo Wrote:年にしては大きい -> Hmm... Not the most idiomatic way... (Is "（彼は）年にしては大きい" an example sentence in a textbook?)I had checked in Kenkyuusha. It probably wasn't a good choice for an eg, just the first one that came to mind. Good to know if it sounds off.
年にしては[年の割に] 大きい be big for one's age [years]
息子は年にしては体が大きい. My son is big for his age.
あの年にしては実に健康だ. She's really healthy for a person of that age.
Most books I've seen emphasize 'contrary to expectations'. I figured if gyuujuice is going to rely on their "although you may expect" thing, I wanted to give them a head's up that にしては will also appear without a strong sense of unexpectness. In those instances, it feels more like a neutral 'relative to a certain class or considering a certain person' (at least that's sense I get from it). :p
She's strong. --> She's strong for a girl.
It's a good drawing. --> For him, it's good drawing.
I wouldn't equate those to:
Although you might expect that a girl isn't strong, she is.
Although you might expect that his painting isn't good, it's good.
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - gyuujuice - 2010-11-24
"I wanted to give them a head's up that にしては will also appear without a strong sense of unexpectness. In those instances, it feels more like a neutral 'relative to a certain class or considering a certain person' (at least that's sense I get from it.)"
Thanks, I can see what you mean. よく勉強になりました。
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - magamo - 2010-11-24
When you say Xにしては, usually there is a fixed general image or some kind of stereotype about X. So, "彼女はモデルにしては自分の服に気をつかわない" tends to imply that the speaker thinks the majority would agree that this is unexpected considering the fact that she is a model. For this reason, X can't be a neutral abstract concept.
The concept "age" in itself has no implication so 年にしては isn't the best example unless you specify the age you're talking about or it's absolutely clear what age you're talking about from the context. "20 year olds," "people my age," etc. would be ok for X. But it's better to give more information (e.g., "あの"年にしては) if used as a standalone example sentence taken out of context.
As for its nuance, it's true that it can be more neutral than the obviously negative kind of "although you may expect..." But it can't follow a neutral thing X. So, for example, あなたにしてはよくやった would imply that you expected worse, i.e., あなた sucks at it. So good teachers wouldn't say it to their students. あなたにしてはよくやった never carries the neutral nuance that you did a good job (with the sense of "everyone is unique and different"). あなたにしては〜だ always means either that the person sucks at it but somehow he did it right this time or that he could have done better than that or something along those lines. It's a very bad wording if you use it as a praise. If anything, it can be an insult. [Edit] As explained in the later post, the only exception is when あなたにしては is followed by a neutral fact which contradicts the speaker's assumption about the listener あなた. In this case, the sentence itself is neutral as long as the fact, the assumption, and having such an image/stereotype are all absolutely neutral.
I don't know if this makes sense to you, but this is why あ、あんたにしてはよくやったじゃない is a typical line when a tsundere gives away her dere side. She wants to praise/thank a guy. But her tsun personality doesn't allow her to say it. So her line comes out as an awkward mix of a praise/thanks and insult.
Thora Wrote:It's a good drawing. --> For him, it's good drawing.Who drew it? Do you mean 彼にしてはいい絵だ as in "Considering his (not very good) drawing skill, this is a good job" or 彼にしてみればいい絵だ as in "For him, it's a good painting (because it has a special meaning to him, because he likes that kind of style, etc. with the connotation that the majority may not think it's good)."?
Kanzen 2Kyu Grammar Questions Thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-11-24
Although the negative can have a more positive meaning, right? Something like 今日は、あなたにしては間違いが多かった.
I hate having to teach にしては、にしても、としては、としても, partly because I still feel like I don't fully understand it.