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Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-05

bodhisamaya Wrote:Actually, Kan was just re-elected a couple weeks ago.
Japan changes prime ministers almost every year. Nothing new:
Prime Ministers of Japan
The last four all served less than a year, except Fukuda who had a year and an extra few days.

That is .... new.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-05

nest0r Wrote:
Womacks23 Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:Is Womacks23 trolling or something? I'll have to go through their posts to see if they've said anything that isn't negative and authoritatively overgeneralized.

Someone needs to move to gaijinpot, methinks. ;p
LOL

You should ignore my posts if you don't like them. Or I don't know, maybe actually contribute to the thread here instead of posting off topic nonsense.
I often ignore ignorance, it depends on the level of self-deceiving authoritativeness someone such as yourself invests in their posts. In such cases, mockery ensues for at least a time. Your comments are the kind of blanket pet theory axioms an old WASP expatriate would make at Gaijinpot, or very derivative of it. I'm sorry that you feel you're 'contributing' anything at all. I doubt you'd find many here who agree with you, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong? ;p I am but a humble observer.
You really show your ignorance when you think I've been posting ganjipot theories in this thread instead of mainstream Japanese political and social thought.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-05

bodhisamaya Wrote:
Womacks23 Wrote:
bodhisamaya Wrote:Actually, Kan was just re-elected a couple weeks ago.
Japan changes prime ministers almost every year. Nothing new:
Prime Ministers of Japan
The last four all served less than a year, except Fukuda who had a year and an extra few days.

That is .... new.
Japan has had 25 prime ministers in the last 30 years.
You meant to say 18 right?

Count again?

30 years ago is October 1980. Suzuki Zenkō to Kan is 18 people.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - ocircle - 2010-10-05

Damn, Korea's not even on the list. We're that ... badass.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - bodhisamaya - 2010-10-05

Womacks23 Wrote:You meant to say 18 right?

Count again?

30 years ago is October 1980. Suzuki Zenkō to Kan is 18 people.
Ah, yea. I was looking at the far left column.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - pm215 - 2010-10-05

IceCream Wrote:Who's a troll?
Must be that Language Style Matching thing...

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Tzadeck - 2010-10-05

zigmonty Wrote:Is it just uncool these days to be proud of your country? When did pride for what your country has collectively accomplished equate to blind nationalism and racial superiority complexes?
Well, certainly, people who are very proud of their country often have blind nationalism and racial superiority complexes. There's a big correlation there, though I'm not sure about causation.

My thoughts about this have always been that it's one of those things where generalizations screw things up. It's alright to be proud of specific good things your country has done, but as soon as you start being 'proud of your country', and ignoring specifics, you start denying bad things your country has done, or making up really vague statements about good points of your country (Chris Matthews has a whole chapter in one of his books where he talks about how what is interesting about America is that Americans are the 'most freedom-loving people in the world.' The majority of 'proud' Americans would never stop to think about how that is one of the dumbest sentences ever written). This seems to be an early start on the road to blind nationalism, thinking that your country is better than others, etc. Somewhere along the line people start thinking it's honourable to die for your country even when the situation is ridiculous (the Vietnam War, etc). Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

So, yes, it's uncool.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - slivir - 2010-10-05

If I went back to Australia and starting talking about some bad points I thought about my own country, most likely someone would say something along the lines of "If you don't like it then get the **** out already". I can see why Australia is at the top of that list. Yes, being too proud of your country could probably be considered a bad thing.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - zigmonty - 2010-10-05

harhol Wrote:
zigmonty Wrote:Is it just uncool these days to be proud of your country? When did pride for what your country has collectively accomplished equate to blind nationalism and racial superiority complexes?
The priority should always be to focus on the problems that need solving, and there will always be problems, so to focus on the good is to do so at the expense of focusing on the bad. In that sense it is "blind". Also, countries don't accomplish things, people do.
Focus on problems in order to effectively solve them, sure. Beating yourself up about them to the point you forget what has been accomplished, causing you to lose hope for the future, is hardly an effective strategy.

Countries are groups of people. You sound like you don't believe the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts. That's fair, but it's not a philosophy i agree with. I personally prefer to believe societies accomplish things un-united people alone cannot. I think the near religious focus on individuality in the west is simultaneously our greatest strength and our greatest weakness.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - harhol - 2010-10-05

I don't favour or value individualism. I'm left of centre and then some. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't credit countries for the achievements of people (either individually or collectively) because then in order to be consistent we must also credit countries for the misdemeanors of people. It just leads us down the road to a "we did this, you did that" mentality, which isn't healthy. I don't think of Americans in terms of Hiroshima just as I hope they don't think of me in terms of the British Empire.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-05

zigmonty Wrote:
Womacks23 Wrote:It's not that they are not proud to be Japanese. Because we all know Japanese people will go on and on all day about how great green tea and onsens are....They are just not proud of the modern nation called Japan.
Why the hell wouldn't you be proud of the modern nation called Japan?! They built it from ashes to global dominance in what, 40 years? I mean sure there are problems, all countries have problems, but in the scheme of things they've done all right. Japan is a role model through much of asia (even if many don't want to admit it) and has taught the west more than a few things too. No one makes cars the way Ford made cars in the 20s.
I got a conspiracy for you guys.

The Nazi German economic model served as the basis for the command economy established in prewar Manchuria, where it worked very well. That success influenced the thinking of many of Japan's postwar economic leaders and served as the model for the strong government control of Japan's economy right through the 1970s.

And ex 満鉄 employees controlled MITI for a good chunk of time between 1945-1970.

So basically you really need to thank Hitler. (adjusts tin foil hat)

Cultural cringe in Japan? - zigmonty - 2010-10-06

harhol Wrote:I don't favour or value individualism. I'm left of centre and then some. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't credit countries for the achievements of people (either individually or collectively) because then in order to be consistent we must also credit countries for the misdemeanors of people. It just leads us down the road to a "we did this, you did that" mentality, which isn't healthy. I don't think of Americans in terms of Hiroshima just as I hope they don't think of me in terms of the British Empire.
Well, a few years ago, our PM publicly apologized on behalf of the rest of Australia to the Aborigines of the stolen generation. That is something that happened before my generation was born, and certainly wasn't on the radar of most people who were alive then. There was still a need to own up to it as part of the reconciliation process, even it if is quite hard to assign personal blame to the majority of people who are alive today.

The Americans *are* the people who bombed Hiroshima and the British *are* the people who built and operated their enormous empire. The Americans are also the people who landed on the moon and the British are also the people who lead the world into the industrial revolution (merits of both countries greatly abbreviated). Yes, in all cases, both good and bad, a relatively small group of people were ultimately responsible for most of the key decisions, but those people were still the product of the society they were raised in.

I don't see what's unhealthy about looking at what various societies and cultures have done and learning from it. Why was it the British that pulled such an unquestionable scientific and industrial gap on the rest of the world in the 1700s and 1800s? Why was it the Americans who went from first powered flight to landing on the moon in 66 years (not discounting the Russians, Germans, or other pioneers of aviation)? How the hell were the Japanese able to go from feudal warlords, fighting with swords, to the builders of the most powerful battleships the world has ever seen in less than 100 years? And then rebuild after a devastating war to the point where economically they were second only to the victors in a few short decades?

Would the leaders of your society have dropped the A-bomb if your country was in the position the Americans were in? If not, why not? Are you sure? If you gave the Japanese military leaders the option of nuking Los Angles at the height of their desperate Kamikaze campaign, would they have refrained on humanitarian grounds? What's to stop a similar situation occurring again?

I do agree that religious levels of pride in your own country combined with sheer ignorance of other countries is a recipe for disaster. There's a happy medium in there somewhere. I'm still proud to be an Australian. Doesn't mean i think we're better than anyone.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - nest0r - 2010-10-06

Womacks23 Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:
Womacks23 Wrote:LOL

You should ignore my posts if you don't like them. Or I don't know, maybe actually contribute to the thread here instead of posting off topic nonsense.
I often ignore ignorance, it depends on the level of self-deceiving authoritativeness someone such as yourself invests in their posts. In such cases, mockery ensues for at least a time. Your comments are the kind of blanket pet theory axioms an old WASP expatriate would make at Gaijinpot, or very derivative of it. I'm sorry that you feel you're 'contributing' anything at all. I doubt you'd find many here who agree with you, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong? ;p I am but a humble observer.
You really show your ignorance when you think I've been posting ganjipot theories in this thread instead of mainstream Japanese political and social thought.
You've been representing a certain strain of thought as if it's the only mode, unequivocal and extreme, and it happens to be the same metanarrative codified by the 'Western MSM'. It does indeed have correlations with elements in Japan, and I do think the memetic influence on certain Japanese media is global and telling.

Unfortunately, your attitude indicates you've little room in your brain for understanding how the politics actually work, instead you shape it in the same bitterly tinged manner I see primarily unhappy, older WASP expatriates write about their experiences in Japan. It sounds like you're reading from the Modern Japan 101 textbook, like you all went to the same old boy's college.

I'm sorry that you and anyone who reads your comments think this is an appropriate or accurate image of Japan. I know certain forums think in echoes of this condescendion about other countries and their people, repeating essentializing memes and tropes.

I can't see any way for you to engage with others and deal with the genuine, underlying issues when you can't even phrase the simplest forum comments on the topic in a way that indicates flexibility or humility. It's all axiomatic parroting with you, in my estimation.

Still, it's better than the kind of tween grudge-holding and snarky side-taking you'll see other kids deploy...

Cultural cringe in Japan? - nest0r - 2010-10-06

pm215 Wrote:
IceCream Wrote:Who's a troll?
Must be that Language Style Matching thing...
C'mon, it's just Australia. Who here likes Australia?? They don't even eat dolphins. And everyone bullies Canada.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - ropsta - 2010-10-06

The IceCream like Jedi has become. Padawan no more. Hrrhmm

Cultural cringe in Japan? - nest0r - 2010-10-06

ropsta Wrote:The IceCream like Jedi has become. Padawan no more. Hrrhmm
Metaphorical Star Trek validation that requires 'ropsta' to first metaphorically take on the role of a superior evaluating an inferior. Hmm. ;p

Cultural cringe in Japan? - nest0r - 2010-10-06

IceCream Wrote:nestor: i don't have any kind of grudge against you. i don't like your personal attacks, arrogance, and derision towards people you disagree with. i don't like it when you do it to me, and i don't like coming here & reading it. i especially don't like the hypocrisy of many of your criticisms, although perhaps you don't see the irony. if i see it, there's no reason i wouldn't point it out... that's not a grudge.

i have no personal opinion on this topic, and wasn't "taking sides" on the issue. Just pointing out a perceived similarity between both you and Womacks forms of argument.
Spin it how you like. Pretty much any time I comment, no matter to whom, I can expect you to pop in and side with whomever I disagree with, no matter the topic. This trend began after periods of your many tantrums filled with name-calling and deleting your posts out of I hope a sense of shame (that you never seem to learn from). If you sense disrespect in my comments, those comments are to people that--in contrast to those here that I'm neutral to or respect--I consider inferior to me or who have offended me through their offensive or just plain unintelligent comments. You are one of those people, and of course I am arrogant with you--I am constantly surprised you ever even address me like we're equals!

At any rate, I feel no need to justify myself to you, but since you've commented to me so many times in a row over the past few weeks, I thought I should toss you a bone.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - harhol - 2010-10-06

nest0r could perhaps benefit from learning some people skills but his/her basic point here is right. Saying things like...
Quote:"Even though the Japanese had a lot of pride that they succeeded in modernizing their country, it was forever tempered with frustration and resentment"
...and...
Quote:Because modernization was equal to westernization, a whole variety of stresses were formed in the Japanese mind. The Japanese people are still trying to balance these out.
...and then calling it "mainstream thought" is asking to be ridiculed. You'd have struggled to get away with that sort of thing in a Nihonjinron text book in the 70s.

Unfortunately these orientalist theories (the Japanese as a homogenous Borg-like "mind", etc) continue to proliferate among exactly the types of communities that nest0r mentioned.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - bodhisamaya - 2010-10-06

nest0r Wrote:If you sense disrespect in my comments, those comments are to people that--in contrast to those here that I'm neutral to or respect--I consider inferior to me or who have offended me through their offensive or just plain unintelligent comments. You are one of those people, and of course I am arrogant with you--I am constantly surprised you ever even address me like we're equals!
Ice Cream is at times a little naive, but she also seems to be the type of person most people would want as a friend in real life.

Over the years, I have sort of gotten the impression we are all intellectually inferior to you and not worthy as challengers of your opinions. We all disagree with each others logic from time to time, but you seem to take differences of opinion as a personal attack.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-06

harhol Wrote:nest0r could perhaps benefit from learning some people skills but his/her basic point here is right. Saying things like...
Quote:"Even though the Japanese had a lot of pride that they succeeded in modernizing their country, it was forever tempered with frustration and resentment"
...and...
Quote:Because modernization was equal to westernization, a whole variety of stresses were formed in the Japanese mind. The Japanese people are still trying to balance these out.
...and then calling it "mainstream thought" is asking to be ridiculed. You'd have struggled to get away with that sort of thing in a Nihonjinron text book in the 70s.

Unfortunately these orientalist theories (the Japanese as a homogenous Borg-like "mind", etc) continue to proliferate among exactly the types of communities that nest0r mentioned.
1. Read the newspaper editorials in Japan.
2. Go to any bookstore and flip through the top selling PoliSci and philosophy books.
3. Then come back and say what I posted is not mainstream thought.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - onafarm - 2010-10-06

harhol Wrote:@zigmonty

Australia still seems to be catching up with the rest of the Western (first) world in terms of white/black relations. I remember that recent controvery about a minstrel act on a comedy show, and there was that embarrassing KFC ad. In both cases white Australians not only defended the material but seemed unable to come to terms with why people might find it offensive.
The KFC ad was not at all embarrassing. Nor was it at all racist. Except in the eyes of overly sensitive folk in the US who cry 'racism' at anything and everything.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-06

nest0r Wrote:
Womacks23 Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:I often ignore ignorance, it depends on the level of self-deceiving authoritativeness someone such as yourself invests in their posts. In such cases, mockery ensues for at least a time. Your comments are the kind of blanket pet theory axioms an old WASP expatriate would make at Gaijinpot, or very derivative of it. I'm sorry that you feel you're 'contributing' anything at all. I doubt you'd find many here who agree with you, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong? ;p I am but a humble observer.
You really show your ignorance when you think I've been posting ganjipot theories in this thread instead of mainstream Japanese political and social thought.
I'm sorry that you and anyone who reads your comments think this is an appropriate or accurate image of Japan.
Simple question. What was the best selling political science/philosophy book in Japan in 2006?

Cultural cringe in Japan? - zigmonty - 2010-10-06

Man, can't you people just enjoy a good, old-fashioned argument? I get bored when people agree with me. I like when people seem to be able to make logical arguments 180 degrees from my (supposedly logical) viewpoint. It might mean i'm wrong or that there's a deeper difference in ways of thinking than i realised (working for a Japanese company i've noticed this one a lot). Both are way more intellectually stimulating than talking to people who agree with you all the time.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - nest0r - 2010-10-06

bodhisamaya Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:If you sense disrespect in my comments, those comments are to people that--in contrast to those here that I'm neutral to or respect--I consider inferior to me or who have offended me through their offensive or just plain unintelligent comments. You are one of those people, and of course I am arrogant with you--I am constantly surprised you ever even address me like we're equals!
Ice Cream is at times a little naive, but she also seems to be the type of person most people would want as a friend in real life.

Over the years, I have sort of gotten the impression we are all intellectually inferior to you and not worthy as challengers of your opinions. We all disagree with each others logic from time to time, but you seem to take differences of opinion as a personal attack.
I think you feel that way because I have basically the same respect for you that I have for IceCream, though I think you're a decent enough web entity. I do the opposite of taking things personally, you're just a name on a page to me. My critiques of you might seem harsh, but if I didn't feel strongly derisive I wouldn't bother commenting, I'd pass it off as typical forum elements. Some people here I think are very smart, kind, wise, cool, and a much smaller number which tend to have the 'loudest' debates, not so much.

@Womacks

Everything is mainstream these days. It means 'dominance' less than it simply means 'prominent' in such a system, and it certainly doesn't mean 'right'. I have already contextualized in what way your thoughts indicate 'mainstream' to me and woven it into my dismissal, which is as much a dismissal of your axiomatic disposition as anything.

Cultural cringe in Japan? - Womacks23 - 2010-10-06

Mainstream -
3.
belonging to or characteristic of a principal, dominant, or widely accepted group, movement, style, etc.: mainstream Republicans; a mainstream artist.


Everything is not mainstream. I posted a very simplified summary of theories that appear in popular Japanese books and newspapers. Instead of debating the merits of the ideas you go off in a rant about gaijinpot and white expats. I've posted that these theories appear in any editorial page and fill the shelves in Japanese bookstores and you try to change the definition of mainstream.

It's quite clear that you have no intention of actually engaging in this discussion about cultural pride in Japan and you dismiss all evidence that these theories are prominent in Japan. So I suppose you should go browse a different forum.