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+--- Thread: Only Women Teach Japanese (/thread-6395.html)
Only Women Teach Japanese - TaylorSan - 2010-09-19
My Uni Japanese teacher was an older white dude (he did the oyaji comedy kind of thing - class was more about funny stories about Japan then learning the language). Unfortunately there is not enough demand at my school for an extensive Japanese language program - he is the only teacher and there are only two beginner levels, so the 50 or so students have nowhere to advance to. I'm all about self study and the like, so it's not a huge problem, but it would be nice to have the option of more advanced instruction.
Not many Japanese students out here apparently too. I have been told there are less and less Japanese students studying abroad, and most want to be in other US cities (like maybe L.A., S.F.?) My language partner last term was a Japanese housewife (though not the stereotype) who's husband was stationed here for his work. I lucked out in meeting her in a class, as she was taking it to help her english. Unfortunately their visa ran out, so I have no partner at the moment (though I do have an awesome friend who I can visit in Japan now). I did just find the only Japanese student who is involved in the language exchange program (who is a dude), so I'm hoping that will work out. But eventually I may need to transfer to a school on the west coast to find a better ratio of native Japanese speakers as it so limited here.
Does anyone notice a lot of female translators? Maybe it is just my limited observation, but it seems like whenever I see someone's english being translated into Japanese, it is a female who's doing it.
Only Women Teach Japanese - ocircle - 2010-09-19
Education has traditionally been viewed a female job (there are more female teachers than male teachers, everywhere) and linguistics, a humanities subject, is again, traditionally female.
zzzzz you might as well ask "Why are all the English Lit majors female??? I don't understand. (It's not like studying languages and obsessing over literature is mostly socially expected by submissive-types/Beta personalities or anything.)"
Only Women Teach Japanese - Yinake - 2010-09-19
Another personal vignette:
I've been in Korea for 3 years, and the first one and a half of it, I attended a full-time Korean language school at a university. Out of the 50 or so instructors, 3 or 4 were male. I had the pleasure to be taught by one of my advanced classes later on, and he told me that, upon hearing he was teaching foreigners his native language, was often assumed to be gay.
I've also studied Japanese at a private academy here in Korea, and was taught Japanese exclusively by Korean women (interestingly, though, they do have one native male Japanese teacher, but he exclusively teaches JLPT 1 prep class).
I agree with another poster earlier, the question should be more, "why are Asian males unwilling to teach their native language?" I'd venture a guess and say that many Japanese males probably think it's not a suitable or desirable occupation to spend their lives teaching foreigners how to speak their language - there is a whole lot of pressure in Asia to join a company and slave away there in exchange for a respectable social status, after all. So, the reason why women dominate the market is probably caused by a combination of the job being naturally more to the tastes or skills of women, and it being a more 'feminine' job that men don't really want to do.
(On the subject of female voices being better for teachers, I've heard from the beforementioned sole male Korean teacher I ever met that female voices were easier to understand by foreigners because the naturally higher pitch makes the variations in tone more obvious, while men spoke naturally more montonously, and that students continuously scored higher in listening exams read by females. Who knows.).
Only Women Teach Japanese - chamcham - 2010-09-19
I was thinking another reason might be that teaching a foreign language isn't a "hard" science. So it's not considered to me manly. Linguistics, on the other hand, can get very technical, so it's OK for men to study linguistics.
I don't know about other countries, but in the US there are a lot of women in humanities and "soft" sciences (psychology, biology, chemistry etc.), which don't involve a ton of math. But something like physics (really hard math) is mostly ruled by men.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Thora - 2010-09-20
Yinake Wrote:I agree with another poster earlier, the question should be more, "why are Asian males unwilling to teach their native language?" I'd venture a guess and say that many Japanese males probably think it's not a suitable or desirable occupation to spend their lives teaching foreigners how to speak their language - there is a whole lot of pressure in Asia to join a company and slave away there in exchange for a respectable social status, after all. So, the reason why women dominate the market is probably caused by a combination of the job being naturally more to the tastes or skills of women, and it being a more 'feminine' job that men don't really want to do.I'm afraid I don't see how that is a different question. Society expects men to X not Y, therefore men do X. Society expects women to do Y not X, therefore women do Y. Why do women do Y? Why do men -not- do Y? same reason. [which I also think is a reason btw]
[re: "natural skills"] If society were to decide that Y actually deserves status and high pay, would men then clamour to do Y? Should jobs for which men have 'natural' skills get status and higher pay because society says men need to earn more? In some societies, I imagine all teachers are male. Do their children suffer? Too much arbitrariness and rationalization for me.
Also, I think you do men a disservice to suggest they somehow lack the necessary natural skills. Men are awesome. As ocircle snored, the "why" here isn't much of a mystery.
oh, if students have difficulty understanding the male voice, they're in for a shock in the real world (unless, of course, they're fighter pilots or drivers with GPS .. 24/7.) :-) [edits]
Only Women Teach Japanese - zachandhobbes - 2010-09-20
Just popping in - every single Japanese teacher I've had (middle school -> high school) which totals to 6 different ones, were female.
Never was there a male Japanese teacher on staff either.
In Japan, at the high school I visited, the 'Japanese' (equivalent of English here in america) teacher was a female, and the English teachers were both female as well.
:o
面白いね。。。
Only Women Teach Japanese - kazelee - 2010-09-20
Thora Wrote:I'm afraid I don't see how that is a different question.Well if you look at the letters and words you'll see they are somewhat different
Quote:If society were to decide that Y actually deserves status and high pay, would men then clamour to do Y?ehem... Pr0n.
Quote:Should jobs for which men have 'natural' skills get status and higher pay because society says men need to earn more?Yeah. Who wants to be paid less than someone half their size.
Quote:In some societies, I imagine all teachers are male. Do their children suffer?Um... That's.... um... unrelated.
Quote:Too much arbitrariness and rationalization for me.You lost me.
Quote:Also, I think you do men a disservice to suggest they somehow lack the necessary natural skills.But they do. How many men do you know with the ability to learn a new language, stand in front of a class, teach, and answer questions? Women are more verbal creatures and "naturally" adept at this sort of thing. Combine that with the "thou shall not speak less thou be woman," programming men DON'T receive and it makes PERFECT sense.
Quote:oh, if students have difficulty understanding the male voice, they're in for a shock in the real world (unless, of course, they're fighter pilots or drivers with GPS .. 24/7.) :-)Only males speaking on television. Dudes need to open their damn mouths when the speak.
BOOYA!!!
つまり Gender roles SUCK!
I think the Yinake was just trying to say that certain jobs are expected of men and/or have better appeal. The natural skill thing was kinda weird though.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Thora - 2010-09-20
Thora Wrote:If society were to decide that Y actually deserves status and high pay, would men then clamour to do Y?
kazelee Wrote:ehem... Pr0n.haha i guess that brings us back to the issue of natural skills and endowments
Only Women Teach Japanese - kainzero - 2010-09-20
All my teachers up until high school were all female. The only male teacher we had, he turned out to be gay. Heh. I feel that when you go up the educational ladder, it tends to be more skewed towards males. I only had one female engineering professor.
The three teachers I've had for Japanese were female. The conversational teacher and the teacher I would've had this quarter for Japanese 3 in community college is a male. But supposedly he's sexist, haha. He told my friend not to smoke because it'll make him impotent.
Only Women Teach Japanese - captal - 2010-09-20
I started learning Japanese from a white, Australian male, though the rest of the teachers at that uni were female. GenkiJACS has 1 or 2 male teachers- I had a lesson with one once- all we talked about was picking up women and drinking. Maybe it was to balance all the female lessons
Only Women Teach Japanese - Iryoku - 2010-09-20
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Only Women Teach Japanese - kazelee - 2010-09-20
Iryoku Wrote:So there you have it. I think my answer is closest to the reality.Righton brother
*fist bump*
Tell it like it is!
Only Women Teach Japanese - Ryuujin27 - 2010-09-20
yudantaiteki Wrote:I asked the people in said departments, which included the department head and all the teachers themselves.Ryuujin27 Wrote:I've asked this same question to a number of different universities.Who are you asking in these universities? I've never heard anyone say that men aren't hired because they don't speak clearly. I don't even think it's necessarily the case that schools intentionally hire more women; it may just be that more women apply.
And yes, this would lead to all the males speaking slightly unnaturally, but it is then the female teacher's job not to include any 'female language' in her speech. This was at least when the male speaks slightly unnaturally, he is speaking correctly and politely.
Only Women Teach Japanese - SammyB - 2010-09-20
I'm a guy. I'm currently studying to be a High School Japanese language teacher... But I'm not Japanese...
Only Women Teach Japanese - Tzadeck - 2010-09-20
Just to point a counter case--since there seem to be pretty much none--at my university the head of the Japanese language department was a man, and one of the two other Japanese teachers were men. Thus, 66% men.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Hashiriya - 2010-09-20
At my college, the ratio seems to be 1:1
Only Women Teach Japanese - bodhisamaya - 2010-09-20
Would it be sexist to say women love to talk, and men dislike it? Enough of a reason maybe for seeing the language field being dominated by women? Well, except in the eikaiwa industry where it is 3-1 men.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Thora - 2010-09-20
Iryoku and IceCream, I can't follow what you guys mean. You're separating individual psychology from culture?
The explanations iryoku gives just sound like more examples of the same - personal behaviour being influenced by culture. Do Japanese men actually have no interest in foreign travel, or is it that there are greater expectations for them to establish a stable income and start saving. Women, on the other hand, are more able to do temporary jobs and take advantage of their greater disposable income and free time. Western women don't want careers abroad? If that's true, is it for personal psychological reasons unrelated to culture? (You've indicated they don't like the treatment of women in Japanese society.)
Is the male to female ratio of Japanese teachers in Japan different than abroad? If far more women teach in Japan as well, why focus on Japanese teachers abroad?
Is the M:F ratio of foreign language teachers in other countries quite different than in Japan? Why might that be? Coincidence of personal psychology? Japanese have different M:F physiology?
In countries where the M:F ratio of teachers has increased, what are the possible reasons? Any connection between gender equality overall and a more even representation of men and women in various occupations?
If the issue is the disproportionate number of women teaching languages at schools and universities, does it really make sense to include temporary visitors who have no training, do not see themselves as teachers, and have no intention of working as teachers when they return home? That seems like a slightly different issue: why are Japanese men who are temporarily residing abroad less likely to take temporary jobs as language tutors/instructors than, say, American males? Is sexual attraction your answer here as well? Does that mean Japanese men actually want to tutor, but cannot find jobs? Do universities hire based on sexual attractiveness?
I feel I might be misinterpreting, because it strikes me as a non issue. Things change gradually. And personal motivations and options change with them.
Only Women Teach Japanese - kazelee - 2010-09-20
@Thora
Men's gotta do Men's work. Gemmit!
Quote:Do universities hire based on sexual attractiveness?Even the modern day icons of ration and equality can be guilty of hiring a professor "because she was hot." Of course the decision is then backed up the individuals credentials, but less hot people with similar credentials don't get the job.
Only Women Teach Japanese - ta12121 - 2010-09-20
kazelee Wrote:@Thorathis is true...
Men's gotta do Men's work. Gemmit!
Quote:Do universities hire based on sexual attractiveness?Even the modern day icons of ration and equality can be guilty of hiring a professor "because she was hot." Of course the decision is then backed up the individuals credentials, but less hot people with similar credentials don't get the job.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Thora - 2010-09-20
Quote:Do universities hire based on sexual attractiveness?
kazelee Wrote:Even the modern day icons of ration and equality can be guilty of hiring a professor "because she was hot." Of course the decision is then backed up the individuals credentials, but less hot people with similar credentials don't get the job.Yeah, life can be easier if you're good looking. I'm sure you've experienced that. The point was that lumping temp eikawa teachers and trained university instructors together as one muddles things up a bit. How they differ might be interesting, but we can't use one to explain the other.
Only Women Teach Japanese - kazelee - 2010-09-20
Thora Wrote:I'm sure you've experienced that.Yeah. I always got the job when I interviewed with female managers. Sexist pigs.
*thinks about it for a moment*
:o ねぇぇ
Quote:The point was that lumping temp eikawa teachers and trained university instructors together as one muddles things up a bit. How they differ might be interesting, but we can't use one to explain the other.I'm just jerking chains. I do that sometimes.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Iryoku - 2010-09-20
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Only Women Teach Japanese - fugu68 - 2010-09-20
Tzadeck Wrote:Just to point a counter case--since there seem to be pretty much none--at my university the head of the Japanese language department was a man, and one of the two other Japanese teachers were men. Thus, 66% men.Another counter example, at least for European language teaching in the UK. During my undergraduate days, I had a mix of men and women teach me - in fact, a lot of the senior positions were held by men. I subsequently worked in the Modern Languages department at another well-known British university, and again it was a fairly equal mix of men and women. This applied equally to the more junior temporary posts (lector/lectora) who were required to be native speakers of the languages they taught.
HOWEVER...walk down the road to the Oriental Studies department, and all 3 of the Japanese language instructors were Japanese women. I am fairly sure all 3 were also married to UK nationals... To my knowledge, those posts have never been held by Japanese men.
Most Japanese men I've come across in the UK have been here on a temporary basis (students, visiting professors, company secondees etc). On the other hand, I know quite a few Japanese women who have been here much longer - the majority with British/other European spouses.
Only Women Teach Japanese - Thora - 2010-09-20
IceCream Wrote:i think the explanation that "it's traditional for men / women to do X" / "society expects X therefore people do it" doesn't make sense because it turns correlation into a cause. [..] It also seems a little strange to refer to "society" as something that can expect anything.Oh? Is it strange to say "cultural expectations" or "community expectations" because culture and community aren't entities capable of expecting anything? Is this Canadian English?
Sometimes causality can be comfortably inferred (especially on a forum). The connection between a traditionally female job and the current predominance of women in that job strikes me as one of those times. I wouldn't expect people to write, "Based on studies of several countries, there is found to be a strong correlation between past exclusive female participation in certain occupations and ..." ;p
Yinake suggested we should ask why Asian men don't want to teach Japanese instead of why women want to. (Basically it's not considered a man's job.) I gave a quick X, Y example to say those questions are just two sides of the same coin, rather than different questions. It seems you objected to the literal interpretation and causality in that example? Do you think your careful wording (below) would have made much difference? I think you're being a bit nitpicky. ;-)
Quote:Girls are more likely to become teachers than men are, due to cultural influences and traditions. [Men are less likely to become teachers than girls are, due to cultural influences and tradition.]As for the "why", I doubt anyone (well, perhaps one person ;p) thinks there's a correct reason or that we can explain each individual's decision. It's more likely a combination of factors and people have different views about which ones, their relative importance and why. (To me, that's the interesting part.)
Quote:I'm also unclear why Japanese women would reach America and suddenly uphold American traditional cultural stereotypes, but men wouldn't.You lost me. Was that mentioned? American ones?
Perhaps I'm being dense, but I didn't get the significance of your detailed example explanations. The idea that some aspects of culture transfer with emigrants? To emphasize that Japanese societal norms aren't the complete answer? I'm basically not sure what you're disagreeing with, if anything. haha :-)
[reworded part]