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Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-11

I do not know whether there was already such a topic on the forums, but i had another deep insight into that method ajatt was and still is following and trying to persuade so many japanese beginners with. I doubt that it works to be honest, it seems so utopic and unconventional, but ok, Heisig is unconventional compared to other textbooks introducing kanjis, as well. I'd like to know your opinions on textbooks giving detailed information and practise on grammar especially as kanjis are unnecassary in the context of having gone through heisig almost completely. Learning heisig only is fine but i do not know japanese vocabulary at all, as i have hellish problems differentiating homophone readings ("masako, masaka, masaki, misako, misoka etc.. There just so few consonants and every syllable has always a vowel confusing me as hell). I hope you can advise me on how to go on learning basic vocabulary and getting as much grammar knowledge to understand easy ("lightnovel") books written in japanese for primary school kids. Before i started heisig rtk1 i completed naturally the Kanas (incl. the old/traditional kanas not being used anylonger, but anyway..). I feel somehow quite lost in this japanese jungle, therefore quite unmotivated although i've reached already a level i certainly can be proud of.. Unfortunately the huge batch of work which is still to do tends to overweight the past effords and successes. I tried different methods on how to remember vocabulary but it seems my brain is not intended to remember japanese vocabs (something else than in english/latin.. these vocabs are just implanted into my memory, and i tried the same way learning japanese vocabularies and it did not work unforunately for some reason..). Please help me..

Desperately, Tori

Discussion on Textbooks - truando - 2010-09-11

may I suggest japanesepod101 dot com it's a great site just start at the newbie lessons and work your way up it's great fun and you get all of it, grammar, listening, vocab, kanji - they have a free section and a members section.

I have no affiliation with them, I am just a paying member. the site is worth every cent.

And may I add that I checked most of the available books out and they were all boring as hell but this site really kicks ass.

Discussion on Textbooks - Aijin - 2010-09-11

Textbooks are an invaluable resource, and I don't think I'll ever comprehend the "death to textbooks!" sentiment I've seen thrown around.

Textbooks provide:
- Introduction of vocabulary and grammar, its explanations, example sentences, practice assignments, drills, and workbook sheets for the grammar.
- Listening comprehension practice for the material learned
- Reading material that utilizes the material the student is learning

All presented systematically with gradual increases of difficulty from beginner to advanced.

Perhaps the misconception comes from people who think that you're ONLY supposed to use textbooks. Of course not. Textbooks simply give you a path to follow, and it's the student's own responsibility to do the sight seeing and exploration on that path. To make it more blunt: a student should be actively experiencing the material learned, as well as learning new material, through books, anime, manga, drama, movies, magazines, talking online to Japanese people for general conversation, writing letters in Japanese, essays, stories, speaking in Japanese. Whatever aspects of using the language you can find.

I don't know your current skill level of course, but for your goal of reading "light novels" in Japanese just keep in mind that even elementary school material will usually require years of study for foreigners to be able to read, and that for "light novels" you'll need at least mid-intermediate grammar (equivalent of about 3 years of college coursework) though that'll be the easy part. The difficult part will be vocabulary, which will require knowing thousands, and thousands, and thousands of words.

Discussion on Textbooks - pm215 - 2010-09-11

Tori-kun Wrote:i do not know japanese vocabulary at all, as i have hellish problems differentiating homophone readings ("masako, masaka, masaki, misako, misoka etc.. There just so few consonants and every syllable has always a vowel confusing me as hell).
Yes, I have trouble remembering the vowels as well. (Strictly these aren't homophones as they are actually different sounds.) I don't know if you're a native English speaker, but I've read that English accents tend to differ mostly in the vowel sounds, and I have a pet theory that that plus the prevalence of schwa in English means we tend to pay less attention to vowel sounds, and so they're harder to remember when learning Japanese.
Quote:I hope you can advise me on how to go on learning basic vocabulary and getting as much grammar knowledge to understand easy ("lightnovel") books written in japanese for primary school kids.
Like Aijin I'm a fan of the general textbook approach as a "roadmap" to what it makes sense to study next. So I'd suggest something like that. That will get you some vocab, and you could do worse than starting to work through the Core vocab set (via anki or whatever you like) in parallel, to add more as you go.

Discussion on Textbooks - rich_f - 2010-09-12

Pick a method.

Stick with it.

Don't stop.

There are a variety of approaches you can take, it all depends on how you learn. Try a few of them, see what you can stick with, and go with it. The best method to learn the language for you, to be honest, is the one you don't hate. The one you're willing to do every day will be the one that is the most effective.

Your specific problem sounds like you haven't developed an ear for the language yet. That's something that takes time and lots of exposure. Start listening to a lot of Japanese stuff out there.

The more you listen to a foreign language, the more you're telling your brain, "Hey, this unintelligible noise is important. Learn to differentiate this stuff." Your brain will slowly start to get right on it, but it takes time and exposure.

I second the japanesepod101.com recommendation. Or at least I suggest trying out their website to see if it suits you. If it doesn't, then keep moving until you find something that does.

Everyone has an opinion on which textbooks are good, and which are bad. You can search the forums for textbook info. They've been discussed here ad nauseum. The main titles to search for are Genki, Minna no Nihongo, Japanese for Everyone... Japanese for Busy People, Japanese in Mangaland (although I don't know if I'd call this a textbook series, because it lacks audio)... I'm sure there are more out there, but those are the ones that pop in my head.

I used Genki in college. It was okay, but overpriced. Japanese for Everyone has a group of fans around here somewhere, but it's an older book, and it's hard to find the audio for it. Minna no Nihongo has a strong following, too. 3-A, who publishes it, makes some really good study books in general. If I were starting from scratch, that's the series I'd use.

To get to the "Light Novel" reading stage, you're going to need to be able to understand a LOT of grammar, and a nice pile of vocab. Even simpler light novels can have as many as 1500-2000 kanji in them, so unless you want to wear out your dictionary, you'll need a plan for dealing with vocabulary. RTK is great for starting, but it only gets you in the door. Climbing to the 30th floor is a different affair.

Anki is almost a must these days. I can't remember my name without it. Download it and learn to love it. ichi2.net/anki.

Getting there is not impossible, obviously. It's just going to take work and persistence. AJATT's take on it is that it might as well be fun. That's not a bad take on it. If it's fun, you're more likely to do it, and less likely to quit. Find ways to make it fun for you.

Discussion on Textbooks - zigmonty - 2010-09-12

We worked through Minna no Nihongo in our classes at work. It's an excellent beginner's textbook. AJATT, learning from manga etc is great... but i think it probably works better after you're past the beginner stage. And textbooks like MNN are the quickest and most efficient way to do that IMHO. When you can't understand anything, native materials are hopelessly intimidating and it takes a special kind of determination to learn that way. I respect those who learned without textbooks, but don't wish to imitate them.

Once you're intermediate and above though, i think the comprehensive, all-in-one textbooks start to get annoying. I still use textbooks, but content-dense ones like Kanzen Master or ALC's grammar books. They, combined with anki, are a very efficient way to bash a lot of grammar into your head. The rest of my study comes from native material.

That's not to say i wasn't trying to read manga and watch anime when i was a beginner, but textbooks were what i made progress with. If you're feeling lost, give them a try.

Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-12

Thanks for so many replies.. I was actually also trying to "get the ear" for the language by watching tons of J-Dramas and Animes (w/ and w/o Subtitles) but after 4 months of daily watching and listening to japanese podcasts, news (fuji nn f.e.) and animes i recognised it's pure waste of time and disorts my concentration.
Unfortunately i'm not an english native speaker so a lot of books you mentioned here can be good, but i read that learning a foreign language in a foreign language is disadvised and dangerous as you could possibly misunderstand something.
I am a native speaker of german and russian (both fluently) and also studied latin for now approximately 4 years at school (translating, vocabs which helped in my english course later on naturally as well) - but all this latin preknowledge which helped me so much in english has no effect on an asian language like Japanese it seems. English, German and Latin words are completely different to Japanese, forget about Russian.. I had damnd difficulties differentiating "kiku" and "kaku", although i know both mean something completely different; just because of these ugly vowels (i miss consonants).
As far as i understood now you all advise me not to stop with RtK1 (1234 Kanjis atm, revising is needed a lot in a mixed order as i recognised last night) and afterwards starting with drilling vocabs (that means readings... how to handle ON/KUN?) with Anki especially.
I had the german translation of "Japanese for busy people" and it was not worth paying the money for it. Concerning JapanesePod101.com (the concept is great and you get deep insights into every part of japan.. where to get the whole thing offline? anyway) - I like to learn with books, not being dependant on technics and internets so much, not being sticky to the screen all the time. What a pity that Genki does not exist in German, it's a really good concept..
Would you advise me to practice Kanzen Lvl.3 for Grammar? I must say i understand Grammar rather fast (much faster than vocabularies!), so most textbooks are too slow for me and i cannot skip a volume as i just need to get along with the vocabs respectively..
Learning with Manga makes only sense once you have a basis. Everything else is deciphering, guessing, and finally waste of time.

Concrete
- going through whole RtK1 of Heisig to get a deep idea of how kanjis work and how they are written -> getting a fluent handwriting and fast recognition when reading kanjis/guessing meanings of word by seeing the compounds
- looking for a textbook (possibly in mother tongue) which gives indepth Grammar knowledge (Edit: I found a Script by a german university, published for personal use, non commercial, as an ebook, having around 1200 pages [vocabulary lists and grammar explanation and exercises included] - looks worth printing out as it was used for teach students of Japanology at University Duisburg "INEAST")
- getting used to drill through Anki*
- sentences: when to start? I suppose i need to know enough grammar and vocabulary knowledge which include readings of kanjis and kanjis themselves (?)
*Which RtK deck do you recommend for revising? Or would you use Kanjigym Light?

Thanks for your comments and recommendations folks!

Discussion on Textbooks - caivano - 2010-09-12

みんなの日本語 is all in Japanese and you can get the grammar explanation book in many different languages. That ebook you found sounds good though!

Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-12

I guess it's more worth getting the university version even if that means hours in a copyshop ^_^

Anyway, i somehow dodn't get the hang right of Anki.. It looks pretty, smart and useful, but how the heck can i add teh core2k6k Audio and Image files? The Images are displayed but i cannot hear no audio (I just extracted both zip archives into a Core2k6k.media directory..). Absolutely lost in Anki kya~

Discussion on Textbooks - kapalama - 2010-09-12

Tori-kun Wrote:Thanks for so many replies.. I was actually also trying to "get the ear" for the language by watching tons of J-Dramas and Animes (w/ and w/o Subtitles) !
(japanese) Dramas and anime are the absolute worst ways of learning Japanese. It's like watching 'Aqua Teen Hunger Force' and 'Days of our Lives' to learn English. You end up sounding like a profane drama queen.

The Variety shows which are unscripted, and thus un'acted' are a much better source of interactive conversation, especially since they actually have to follow the rules of politeness level interaction. On the other hand, Dramas and cartoons (in addition to speaking stilted scripted lines) almost inevitably ignore the important rules of public interaction because they cut away to scenes that are behind closed doors (thus free from the absolutely required politeness level), or feature kids who use remarkably inappropriate levels of familiarity with adults, that in real life would get them punished badly.

Writers write unnatural lines for dramatic effect, but people speak as they speak.

Ask any Japanese teacher who is trying to break students habits of using anime-speak to communicate. It's like quoting Shakespeare to order hamburgers but with obscenities laced in, and grates badly on Japanese ears.

Alas poor Ronald, I want a shitting hamburger. Whether tis nobler to add a goddam side of fries.

Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-12

I guess i'm too far away to already use the language which is presented and used in jdramas and animes, stuff etc. I'd be glad if i were able to lol

Discussion on Textbooks - kapalama - 2010-09-12

Tori-kun Wrote:I guess i'm too far away to already use the language which is presented and used in jdramas and animes, stuff etc. I'd be glad if i were able to lol
Well here's another benefit of Variety shows then. They have pretty accurate 字幕　built in. Most of what the person actually says (rather than the CC which is often meaning rather than actual spoken word) is diplayed in the screen for comedic effect.

News uses news specific words. Drama and anime use odd phrasings.

Variety shows show people interacting with obvious things. Of course you have to get used to watching them eat at restaurants, because that seems to be about half of what is shown on TV.

Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-12

Where to watch them? Have no possibility in Europe receiving Japanese TV.. (besides JSTV crypted on Hotbird 13°E)

Discussion on Textbooks - kame3 - 2010-09-12

Perhaps it would be nice to take a look at http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5110 , our 'beginner bible' Tongue
(Look at http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=100518#pid100518 for explanation)

I think a big part of Nukemarine's suggested guide is a somewhat consensus approach on the forum (although he is a big sub2srs fan Wink), but you should just try out what works best for you. I wouldn't recommend sticking to one study method, I would recommend just sticking to learning Japanese Tongue I've changed my method numerable times: textbooks in the beginning, then RTK, then sentences, then vocab only, then advanced grammar textbooks. I tried out sub2srs, tv, podcasts, anime, audiobooks. Read this forum closely and you will see lots of great ideas Big Grin

Discussion on Textbooks - nadiatims - 2010-09-12

Don't worry about which textbook, instead focus on the content you need to learn:

-word order
-How particles are used to define word function. topic, subject, object, indirect object, quotations etc
-how to form questions and answers
-How to conjugate verbs and how this is related to meaning.
-passive/active/causitive/transitive/intransitive verbs and how this effects topic, subject, object, indirect object
-Using verbs of giving/receiving
-gobi (sentence final particles that alter the meaning of a sentence)
-using subordinate clauses.

Learn hiragana/katakana
All this stuff can be found online. Find a source with plenty of example sentences. I wouldn't bother srsing sentences, but add all the vocabulary into your srs. Once you feel you have a reasonable understanding of this stuff start reading real Japanese content and srsing all the new vocabulary. Don't worry to much about perfect understanding of grammar but if some aspect is particularly confusing to you look it up online. I'd start with books for children. Don't force yourself to read through a whole book. If it's too painful, it's probably too difficult or boring. SRS all vocab.

edit: forgot to mention. Maybe try pimsleur as a side activity (during your commute or housework or something)

Discussion on Textbooks - lanval - 2010-09-12

Some of my experience with textbooks:

Genki: used it in uni, very good one, just expensive.
Minna no: sooooo boring, but good for extra practice I guess. Not to use as primary source.
Introduction to Intermediate Japanese: really fun essays, though the grammar section isn't that impressive.

I don't like Jpod 101 toooo much because there is just too much stuff in it that I dont care about, too much joking around... Besides they have really weird categories for "lower interm" and "intermediate", when it comes to vocab.

Discussion on Textbooks - robinowen - 2010-09-12

nadiatims Wrote:I'd start with books for children. Don't force yourself to read through a whole book. If it's too painful, it's probably too difficult or boring. SRS all vocab.
imo for a beginner you get way more useful vocab from a textbook than a children's book. it's a good fun thing to do on the side tho. the way a textbook is set up it gives you the most common/useful words first. children's books just throw a load of vocab at you usually involving animals and castles and stuff.

Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-12

Hm, i already had a few insights into grammar, but longer sentences are still painful to read as i tend to translate them word by word to get the contents really.. F.e. in a story i could not really differ whether the woman was eating a bear or vice-versa (particle "ga".. usage and recognition).. and you cannot say "it does not make sense" - maybe the woman was srsly eating this delicate meat or it's a grotesque story, who knows.. So far i can say..

-word order ** Sometimes difficult with stuff like "noga"/"noha" "koto" "mono"
-How particles are used to define word function. topic, subject, object, indirect object, quotations etc ** Needs to be advanced and deepened
-how to form questions and answers ** DONE
-How to conjugate verbs and how this is related to meaning. ** Almost DONE
-passive/active/causitive/transitive/intransitive verbs and how this effects topic, subject, object, indirect object ** Still Difficult.. Confusing "wo"/"ga" (explanation?) => nadiatims?
-Using verbs of giving/receiving ** ageru/yaru/sashiagaru, kureru, morau DONE
-gobi (sentence final particles that alter the meaning of a sentence) ** yo/ze/zo/naa/ne DONE
-using subordinate clauses. ** Relative Clauses clarified, but longer sentences (s.a.) difficult..

Would you advise me to start with Kanzen Master 3 grammar maybe? Hm.. I went through Tae Kim's Guide already several times (english/german). And Genki IS really expensive (i know i could get the ebook, but i want to have some paper 'n pen method applied)..

Discussion on Textbooks - lanval - 2010-09-12

uhm, just a thought, but why don't you print out the ebook or get the book used... Kanzen Master has way too little practise and explanations.

Discussion on Textbooks - Tori-kun - 2010-09-12

So you would recommend Genki Textbook (or workbook)?

Edit: What do you think about the german "Grundkenntnisse Japanisch 1" by the Buske verlag by Shin'ichi Okamoto? Seems to be good, because readings are in Romaji (i know that sounds WRONG, but i can only remember these vocabs when i read the romaji.. when i see my own alphabet directly, otherwise i cannot deal with this amount of vowels (see first post..).. i hope i can get unused to it with the time)

Discussion on Textbooks - kapalama - 2010-09-15

Tori-kun Wrote:So you would recommend Genki Textbook (or workbook)?

Edit: What do you think about the german "Grundkenntnisse Japanisch 1" by the Buske verlag by Shin'ichi Okamoto? Seems to be good, because readings are in Romaji (i know that sounds WRONG, but i can only remember these vocabs when i read the romaji.. when i see my own alphabet directly, otherwise i cannot deal with this amount of vowels (see first post..).. i hope i can get unused to it with the time)
Genki gets recommended a lot because it is cheap for a text book, and fairly complete, and you can easily find both the book and the audio on the web, and some university actually posted Japanese made videos of all the dialogues. People directed me to it over any other choice.

If you are serious about Japanese in any way shape or form, however, do not use romaji (also written Lomazi, and Romazi) ever. It enforces bad pronunciation, and it makes simple things confusing "Huzihala" is a perfectly legitimate, if rare, way of romanizing "Fujihara" but the only reason I know they are the same thing is by making them into hiragana "ふじはら" and comparing them.

And just wait till you get to Japan and see sign that have Sitizi for seven o clock. Again a perfectly legitmate way of romanizing しちじ, as is Sitiji, Shitizi, Sichizi, and Shichiji.

And forget about Duri or Juri or Jyuri, or Dzuri, which are all ways of romanizing something that would written as Julie if it were English.

All these things are only confusing because writing Japanese in 'English' letters is an approximation at best. If you are learning Japanese you need to learn the Kana (both of them) , and learn the alphabet (dictionary order) first, before you do anything else. If you don't know the possible/allowed sounds in a language you will never be able to make sense of speech. And Japanese directly represents the spoken language in its kana.

Discussion on Textbooks - yudantaiteki - 2010-09-15

I'll just chime in my usual objection that (a) I don't believe romaji encourages bad pronunciation, and (b) kana does not guarantee good pronunciation either. Good pronunciation comes from audio input and practice, not which written symbols you use.

Discussion on Textbooks - bennyb - 2010-09-15

No matter what I say dropping any dependence on romaji like a bad habit is an excellent starting point. And 3 cheers to Genki book I for doing that after the second chapter, was a huge help to me in the long run.

I saw one of my co-workers flipping through "Minna no Nihongo I" today, and it was ALL in romaji.... like a 300+ page textbook. Yikes. Would not recommend

Discussion on Textbooks - Koohiisan - 2010-09-15

Tori-kun Wrote:Concerning JapanesePod101.com (the concept is great and you get deep insights into every part of japan.. where to get the whole thing offline? anyway) - I like to learn with books, not being dependant on technics and internets so much, not being sticky to the screen all the time.
I signed up with a premium membership for a month. That gets you full access to their archives. You take the archive download link they give you and plug it into a podcast program like Amarok or iTunes and let it run for about two days straight (~10Mbps Internet for me) to download everything! It did randomly skip some every now and then, but I could visually tell which ones needed to be downloaded again, so it was not a big deal for me.

You'll end up with each audio file, video file, and accompanying PDF that goes with each lesson...everything. Then, after a month I expired my subscription. I can now take my lessons with me on any mp3 player. So, I am not tethered to the computer at all.

Of course, I'll have to subscribe again someday to get all the newer lessons that came out since I cancelled...but...I ended up with somewhere around 20+ GB of stuff. They do offer a lot of nice online bonuses to their subscribers...but I never had the time to sit down and use them.

Discussion on Textbooks - caivano - 2010-09-15

bennyb Wrote:I saw one of my co-workers flipping through "Minna no Nihongo I" today, and it was ALL in romaji.... like a 300+ page textbook. Yikes. Would not recommend
The version I have is all hiranaga / katakana / kanji / furigana... no English, no romaji