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+--- Thread: Request for Book Suggestions (/thread-6336.html)
Request for Book Suggestions - vileru - 2010-09-10
I'm in Japan right now and I'd like to know what books will be essential for me to advance to the next level. I feel like I'm transitioning from the beginner to intermediate stage. I just completed Core2k and Tae Kim, and I've already finished RTK1. To help me move on to the next phase, I recently purchased the entire Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series and the whole Read Real Japanese series. However, I'd like to know what else will be indispensable for my further progress. Thus, recommend away!
Request for Book Suggestions - Tori-kun - 2010-09-10
Achieving a fluent and native looking handwriting i'd suggest you to get the books which were mentioned previously on the forums.
And read this here: http://kanjidamage.com/introduction
He's absolutely right. Read his introduction. I read it and it became so clear. Textbooks, Courses and teacher mostly suck, as he mentions. I guess learning huge amounts of vocabulary will lead you once to fluency in japanese, nothing else.
Erm, get a particles book, preferred: "All About Particles" by Kodansha.
Edit: Maybe it's useful for you, as you mastered RtK1 already, going through RtK2 and learn the On yomi at least. Hope it helps, ne.
Request for Book Suggestions - vileru - 2010-09-10
Tori-kun Wrote:Achieving a fluent and native looking handwriting i'd suggest you to get the books which were mentioned previously on the forums.First, I appreciate the reply. Anyway, the problem is that there's no clear consensus on what is essential at what stage of learning. I know what books have been recommended by several people, but I want to know which books are extremely helpful and which are just merely useful. My purpose in opening a new thread is to find out what book is right for me at my current level.
To clarify, what I'm mainly looking for are reference works. So, "All About Particles" is definitely the type of resource I'm searching for. Literature, nonfiction, and textbook recommendations are also appreciated, but suggestions for these are of secondary importance since it may be difficult for a stranger to gauge what's appropriate for me.
In regards to reference works, I've read praising recommendations for "Making Sense of Japanese" and "Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication". Are these texts worthwhile even though I already own the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series?
Request for Book Suggestions - caivano - 2010-09-10
I recommend going to a big book shop and having a look at all the books.
Personally I like textbooks so would recommend doing a textbook especially if you are in Japan for a while and want to be able to produce half decent Japanese.
Request for Book Suggestions - Tori-kun - 2010-09-10
It always depends on which method you want to follow. If you are a textbook guy, get textbooks, like kanzen master and so on, and act like you are preparing for a JLPT whatsoever. It will boost your language skills and as you are in japan now you can actively train them everywhere you want to.
Following the "textbooks suck" alternative ideology i would recommend you only to get a dictionary, which you kinda got already, and a book about particles which you learn BY HEART de facto. I'd recommend the 2nd as i am following it and can say it's like a wonder.
Additional to all the books i really can say that having a good looking handwriting in japanese, learning all these kanjis for months over and over, revising, is never too bad, and you will be trained in deciphering native handwritings (of boys and girls.. big difference). Finally you need to decide on your own how much money you want to spend on A and B, and whether it's worth it or not.. Alternatively there batchs of ebooks outta there you could have a look into before you invest into something.
Getting thousands of vocabs into your mind will be eased through any SRS software you like, most ppl use Anki (decks.. core/KANJIDAMAGE just to mention two of them, or any other JLPT preparation deck 1kyuu/2/3kyuu)
Request for Book Suggestions - chochajin - 2010-09-11
I recommend this community @ Livejournal: http://community.livejournal.com/japanesebookrec/
Request for Book Suggestions - Aijin - 2010-09-11
Tori-kun Wrote:Textbooks, Courses and teacher mostly suck, as he mentions.Could you elaborate on this? Do you mean that it just happens that many teachers of courses in general happen to be subpar, or that learning a foreign language through coursework with a textbook and teacher "sucks" by its very nature?
Request for Book Suggestions - Tori-kun - 2010-09-11
@Aijin: I must say it always depends on the person. I attended once to a course and saw that it was wasted money in fact (which wasn't too less!), which could have been invested in grammarbooks, particle workbooks and so on. I saw that i was better learning for myself, that i just want to reach the aim and the advantage you have not attending to courses f.e. is, you can decide about your own rythm and adjust it to you daily life (job, school, studying etc.). My japanese courses sucked as the most crucial questions weren't covered and sufficently answered like the permanent "ha/ga" discussion/question. If you have the money it's worth trying, but otherwise not. Courses/Seminars on how to read newspapers in japanese seems to be rather useful, whereas "basic" courses (hiragana/katakana, basic aspects on verb forms, introduction in adjectives and their forms and so on) seem to be wasted money and time.
So far i did not come across a good textbook (genki was quite ok, but it's in english) in german, so i've decided trying it the "Ajatt" way, starting with RtK1 and afterwards going on with RtK2+Anki+Kanjichains. So far my opinion.
Request for Book Suggestions - pm215 - 2010-09-11
Tori-kun Wrote:And read this here: http://kanjidamage.com/introductionI don't think your conclusion follows from that page. Firstly, he's mainly complaining about textbook handling *of kanji*, not Japanese in general. Secondly, his examples of "regular textbooks" making things harder cover (1) some kanji flashcards (2) flashcards/iphone apps (3) dictionaries (4) "kanji textbooks". (1)-(3) aren't "textbooks, courses and teachers" at all, and (4) isn't the same kind of thing as the traditional 'mixed skills' textbook you usually use in a course. In fact (1)-(3) and even (4) are exactly the kind of resource that people who are learning independently are likely to use...
He's absolutely right. Read his introduction. I read it and it became so clear. Textbooks, Courses and teacher mostly suck, as he mentions.
That is, his introduction is a reasonable "why my way of teaching you kanji is better" argument, but you're overextending it in my opinion.
Request for Book Suggestions - Javizy - 2010-09-11
Making Sense of Japanese is definitely worth a read. It's more like a set of interesting and informative essays than a textbook. It'll help give you some insight on key points like wa/ga, ellipsis etc from an early stage, so you can avoid being one of those foreigners who starts every sentence with ワタシワ.
Request for Book Suggestions - Tori-kun - 2010-09-11
Fact is that every textbook will start more or less soon introducing kanji. Introducing Kanjis means, you start with basic kanjis like 1,2,3 and so on, went the straight line like japanese children at japanese schools and the textbooks have no other aim than getting the kanjis in your head through drilling drilling and once again - drilling! It might work for many ppl learning japanese, esp. for japanese being surrounded by words in form of kanjis and so on 24/7. I've not come across a textbook introducing kanjis the heisig way or just a textbook not having any kanjis. Please show me a reasonable one then i might change my opinion, which could be naturally absolutely wrong then. It's just a paradox to "praise" the textbooks as a Heisig-Method-User - that doesn't fit. Hope i'm not misunderstood.. Grammar naturally has to be taught a certain "textbook way" - how else?
Request for Book Suggestions - pm215 - 2010-09-11
There's nothing preventing you from doing RTK and then not worrying about when or how the textbook introduces kanji. And ignoring textbooks because you think they could handle one facet of the language better is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
In fact in my experience most textbooks don't actually say anything much at all about how you should learn kanji; there seems to be an assumption that the student will work on that themselves.
But this is rather hijacking the OP's thread. So:
* yes, Making Sense of Japanese is very good, and I think you (the OP) are probably at about the right level for it. I think it makes most sense to read when you think you kind of have a grasp of the grammar it's talking about, at which point it gives you an alternative take on things which might help to crystallise your understanding. As Javizy says, it's a set of essays rather than reference: it covers mostly 'early intermediate' things like は/が, passive, causative, verbs of giving and receiving.
* you might like Maynard's _Expressive Japanese_ (basically examples and discussion of expressing your feelings in Japanese, but then again you might prefer to pick up that kind of thing from TV/novels/etc (which is actually what I did), especially if you're in Japan. This forum post and replies include my opinions.
* If you find yourself doing a lot of "well I understood all the sentences but I don't know what the author was trying to say", Maynard's _Principles of Japanese Discourse_ might help. It basically covers things like the traditional Japanese ki-shou-ten-ketsu essay structure, and what writers are trying to achieve with 'rhetorical strategies' like mixed da/desu styles, different sentence endings, etc. On the other hand it is written in a somewhat academic style, which some people might not get on with. It's on Google Books so you can dip into it and see what you think.
I don't have a huge set of recommendations, though, since really what got my Japanese up from high-beginner to solid-intermediate was classes (yamasa) and textbooks (the _New Approach_ series). So while I also bought quite a few books, they were more selected for being interesting side dishes rather than the indispensible main course...
Request for Book Suggestions - vileru - 2010-09-11
Thank you Javizy and pm215 for your helpful replies! I think I'll definitely buy a copy of "Making Sense of Japanese" since it seems like the perfect text to remove the haze that lingers around my understanding of fundamental Japanese grammar.
@pm215
I'll definitely consider "Principles of Japanese Discourse". I read a lot of nonfiction, especially philosophy, so I think this resource will be of great use when it comes to approaching philosophy in Japanese. I'll take a look at googlebooks and see if it's what I'm looking for.
Request for Book Suggestions - rich_f - 2010-09-12
@pm215
I read a chunk of "Principles of Japanese Discourse" online, and decided to pick up a copy for myself. It's a little on the dry side, but I've been looking for something like that, too. Sometimes when I read an essay, I just have a general feeling of "huh?" even when I understand everything I read. I'd like to get rid of that feeling.
The only downside is that when I read it, I feel like I'm back in grad school again.
Thanks for the info.
Request for Book Suggestions - vileru - 2010-09-15
Quick Update: comments on the resources I bought
I ended up coming home with "All About Particles" and "Making Sense of Japanese Grammar". Both are amazingly helpful books. "Making Sense of Japanese Grammar" is more of a book that can be read straight through. Its explanations clear up a great deal of confusion and are written in an entertaining style. "All About Particles" is a reference book wholly devoted to particles. It breaks down each particle by usage, explains those uses, and then provides examples sentences in Japanese and romaji with English translations.
One thing worth noting is that the particle explanations in "All About Particles" are much easier to digest than the corresponding explanations in the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series. When it comes to understanding particles, I would recommend starting with "All About Particles" and then moving onto the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series if further explanation is needed.
"Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication (JSPEC)"
I took a look at JSPEC, but it didn't seem especially useful for someone at my level. Most of the patterns fall into common usage, so I've already learned most of them through Core2k and immersion. I'd recommend the text to beginners (around JLPT N5 or N4 level).
"Principles of Japanese Discourse"
I read at least 20-30 pages of this book and it seems incredibly useful for anyone interested in reading essays or articles. Unfortunately, I failed to locate a copy of it despite much searching. The worst part of the text is its price tag, which is over $40 USD. Since I'm not quite at the "essays and editorials" level, I'll wait until I get there and then try to locate some free resources written in Japanese for Japanese students.
Request for Book Suggestions - pm215 - 2010-09-15
vileru Wrote:"Principles of Japanese Discourse"I got mine from amazon.co.uk, which is currently offering it new for 24 quid or used for 12 quid, which is pretty cheap for a textbook. amazon.com doesn't seem to go lower than $35 or so even used; I guess for once we're getting stuff cheaper this side of the pond :-)
I read at least 20-30 pages of this book and it seems incredibly useful for anyone interested in reading essays or articles. Unfortunately, I failed to locate a copy of it despite much searching. The worst part of the text is its price tag, which is over $40 USD.
Request for Book Suggestions - Tori-kun - 2010-10-18
Have a look for the Kanjidamage.com E-book here as well: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6561